OnCourse Software

Hi Dave - Here is the Debug_Monitor log and an attached screen shot for the conversation we were having about if PF3 would always verbally announce heading changes per flight plan, if they were user or custom waypoints.

On this last flight that you will see in the Debug log, it turned out to have an ILS approach and I think it always seems to handle these well, which it did this time as you can see on my Word Doc example Screen Shot. The routing was from MMCE to MMMD and I had added a user waypoint (IF10) at 9.5 miles out which was lined up with RW 10 for the ILS approach. In this case, as you can see by the plane tracks, it did very well. ATC told me to contact approach about 25-30 miles before I got to (IF10) ad had me make a couple of small heading changes before arriving at (IF10) where it then proceeded to line me up for the ILS handoff. (and this was IFR)

So my question is, if this was still an IFR plan, but had not been an airport with an ILS approach, would ATC have at some point still verbally vectored me in according to my custom waypoint and headings, without me asking for vectors beforehand when I got close to that point? This seems to be somewhat hit and miss. Sometimes I hear nothing because ATC decides to bring me in on another RW heading, which is fine, if they verbally tell me that information somewhere close to my user waypoint so I don't manually proceed with my custom waypoint heading. Some times I will hear nothing so I go ahead and make that custom waypoint heading change, get lined up with the runway and then at some point before I land they then tell me that they are now vectoring me into another runway (different from what I had set up on the plan) and that's ok too.

But what happens sometimes is that I get up to my custom waypoint and I know I am there due to calculating my miles from the last VOR waypoint (although I am not looking at my plane on a screen - I have that feature turned off - but when I check later and look at my plane tracks after the flight I can see I was where I thought I was suppose to be). Anyway, sometimes I will get to where I know the user way point is and am expecting a verbal ATC instruction for the heading change and it doesn't come. So, even though I know I should be turning I continue on to see if ATC is going to say something and I will usually fly about 10-15 miles past that waypoint waiting to hear something and when I don't I ask for vectors and then they tell me I am X amount of miles off the airway. Every once in a while, but rarely, they will tell me I am off the airway before I ask for vectors, but even then I actually still am on the airway technically (still on the VOR radial that is in my flight plan, but just 15 miles past it, since they did not seem to see my waypoint and tell me to make the heading change.

I'm always open to the fact that it could be user error on my part, I was wondering what your thoughts were about this and if I am missing something. I'm guessing I am going to have to send you another Debug_Monitor the next time it lets me fly past my user waypoint so you can see what might be happening. I'll be glad to do that next time it happens, but as I say it is kind of hit and miss. Thanks for your thoughts and sorry for the short novel I wrote here. /Mike

Mike, this is a really, really BAD flight plan and it's no wonder PF3 would have issues.

To start with your first waypoint is only 1 mile from your departure... you would have been given a warning about this when loading the flight plan

Your next waypoint (your user waypoint) is 179 miles further on and only 10 miles from your destination.

Your last waypoint is only 1 mile from your destination which is way too close and basically impossible for PF3 to vector you correctly.

Your first waypoint ideally needs to be 10-15 miles from your departure and your last waypoint should be no closer than 20 miles. Don't worry about inserting user waypoints to line up with the runway because (a) you don't know which runway will be in use, especially if using real weather and (b) PF3 will do a better job vectoring you to the active runway, which is does as you reach the last waypoint.

Thanks Dave for the analysis; yep several times there will be a VOR at or near the departure airport which the flight plan wants to automatically route through. I do see the warnings about that when I first initiate the plan. I have sometimes manually deleted those VORs in the past but have found that when it is right at the departure airport it doesn't seem to have a negative effect on the plan. But, I'll do some more testing with that by always removing those too close VORs and see what changes there are.

I think the culprit is the one 10 miles out from the arrival RW. Before using ATC, I always flew (and still do) all of my flight plans manually by VORs and NDBs and never use GPS or the plane's garmin map, flight plan readout or drop down VFR Map in MSFS 2020, because I want the challenge of flying like it was back in the 50's and 60's with just paper maps, VORs and NDBs and no knowledge of exactly where my plane is except by either milage from my last Nav aid or triangulating with the the different Nav aids.

So that is why I would map out different VOR radials to get close to the airport and then I would set a user waypoint to line up with the RW. The example I sent you was pretty straightforward because there was just the departure airport VOR that had range all the way to the arrival airport and then just the one user waypoint for the runway heading, but other times I may use 2 or 3 VOR's/NDBs on a longer route. I usually create the user waypoint at 9.5 miles to create a 3000 ft descent and 3% glide slope. I realize that a 9.5 mile waypoint is very close to the airport but many times it handles that without any issues and sometimes not. That was the Hit and Miss I was talking about earlier. So probably as you say PF3 can sometimes do it and other times not depending on several geographical and/or directional factors, not even to include that PF3 may want to take me to another runway as you say. So I guess that is just an old habit that I will need to consider changing if I'm going to also use ATC. But sometimes even with ATC, in really bad daytime weather where you can hardly see these runways in MSFS 2020 and you have blinding rain or snow and you don't have an ILS approach, it is nice to have that runway heading lined up from the map navigation just in case ATC has an issue right when you get to the airport and you're on your own.

I appreciate you taking a look at this and I will incorporate your suggestions with some new test flights. Thanks again! /Mike

playingitbyear wrote: *

Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:36 pm

I usually create the user waypoint at 9.5 miles to create a 3000 ft descent and 3% glide slope. I realize that a 9.5 mile waypoint is very close to the airport but many times it handles that without any issues and sometimes not.

As Dave points out this is not necessary, since if you are flying a vectored approach PF3 creates an imaginary FAF point located on the extended runway center-line to which you are vectored to intercept the final approach course, and you control the distance from the runway by adjusting the 'FAF Distance' setting on the Options #2>Advanced Options screen. You can experiment with different FAF Distance settings. Mine is set at 9 nm and I very rarely change it.

Also as Dave mentioned, the departure and destination airport VORs should not be included in your flight plan, or if they are, you can deactivate (remove) them on the PF3 flight plan page. Your last waypoint should in most cases be 20-40 miles from the destination, at which point PF3 will begin vectoring you (if you have not checked the STARs box on the SID/STAR page). If you want to use the destination airport's VOR to perform an approach procedure, when PF3 begins providing vectors you can press Hotkey 1 to request clearance at pilot's discretion. This turns off vectoring and PF3 will clear you for approach to the active runway at your discretion. You can then use the airport's VOR and perform your approach to line up with the correct runway, but the destination airport's VOR is not included in your flight plan.

Quote:

If you want to use the destination airport's VOR to perform an approach procedure, when PF3 begins providing vectors you can press Hotkey 1 to request clearance at pilot's discretion. This turns off vectoring and PF3 will clear you for approach to the active runway at your discretion. You can then use the airport's VOR and perform your approach to line up with the correct runway, but the destination airport's VOR is not included in your flight plan.

This is a good work-around for me Dan77. I will do some testing with this. Thanks for the suggestion. /Mike