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Runway change confusion
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2032		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  helix1250 [ Sun May 01, 2016 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Runway change confusion
Evening everyone!

Could someone please check my logs? I had a flight this evening and all indications were that I was going to get a runway 15 at EGBB arrival given the winds at 180. Anyway got given a runway change and cleared for vectors to runway 33, but my vectors took me to runway 15 which would be correct for the winds.

I never recalled getting a second runway change after the initial clearance to runway 33. I checked back on the last ten messages and there was no mention of a second change. But if someone could have a peek I would appreciate it :)

Rob
Author:  ThomasAH [ Mon May 02, 2016 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway change confusion
Code: Select all
5/1/2016 21:00:28: 540 - Transcript: 'Jersey 559 Continue present heading expect vectors for the ILS runway 15  '
-> vectoring to rwy 15
5/1/2016 21:03:36: 160 - Runway 33 0 is being used by AI Traffic! #B
5/1/2016 21:03:36: 160 - Active Runway is set to 33
5/1/2016 21:03:42: 290 - Transcript: 'Jersey 559 Runway change expect vectors for the ILS runway 33 Approach  '
-> vectoring to rwy 33
5/1/2016 21:15:34: 830 - sWPRwyHdg = 328
5/1/2016 21:15:37: 200 - ****** HotKey #2 detected!
-> this is: Request an instrument approach (runway with ILS)
5/1/2016 21:15:40: 270 - Transcript: 'Stand by. We'll check  '
5/1/2016 21:15:45: 400 - Selecting runway (VFR/IFR=1)
5/1/2016 21:15:45: 400 - Active Runway is set to 15
5/1/2016 21:15:47: 700 - sWPRwyHdg = 148
-> vectoring to rwy 15
5/1/2016 21:28:25: 820 - Transcript: 'Jersey 559 Cleared for the ILS runway 15 Approach Contact Tower on 118.3 when established. descend on ILS  '
Wind was in favour of runway 15, but the AI decided to use runway 33 and so PF3 changed runway to 33.
Then you asked for an ILS runway (hotkey 2) and PF3 calculated from scratch based on wind -> runway 15.

At this point I would have expected PF3 to announce the runway change, but it did not.

I have checked old logs if I have a log using this feature and only found this one:
Code: Select all
05/12/2015 15:10:11: 380 - Transcript: 'Cessna Juliet 1608 maintain Heading 255 Cleared to final for Sierra Tango Approach runway 7 at pilot's discretion Contact Tower on 129.8 when established.  '
05/12/2015 15:20:55: 800 - Transcript: 'Approach Cessna Juliet 1608 request an instrument approach  '
05/12/2015 15:21:01: 080 - Transcript: 'Stand by. We'll check  '
05/12/2015 15:21:16: 390 - Transcript: 'Cessna Juliet 1608 Continue present heading Cleared to final for Sierra Tango Approach runway 25 at pilot's discretion Contact Tower on 129.8 when established.  '
So all I can say is, that it worked:
- with beta version 2.999.14
- when using a STAR
- when not having a runway change before that.

Dave, can you verify the triggers for the ATC runway call?

Rob, I should add that you do not need to request the ILS approach, this is only meant to switch from a non-ILS runway to an ILS runway for airports having both. You still found a bug, but the workaround is to not ask for something you already have :)
Author:  Dave March [ Mon May 02, 2016 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway change confusion
It's working exactly as designed as far as I can see. If PF3 has to use wind direction it will always periodically check to see if AI become active for any runway and if so will announce the change. Once you requested a particular runway, however, further changes will not occur.
Author:  helix1250 [ Mon May 02, 2016 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway change confusion
Hi ThomasAH,

Thank you for checking the logs for me.

The reason I hit the "hotkey 2" was to see if I could get the Acars atis. As I already new the wind was better suited for a 15 arrival a I was looking at ASN window, and I wanted to see what weather PF3 was seeing to give the runway swap.

I didn't check the hotkey list for when coconnected to approach, hence me asking for a instrument approach that my mistake. But I guess by me doing that it forced PF3 to re-asses my approach, is that correct? What I find interesting if the AI was using 33, why was I seeing AI lining up waiting to take off from 15? All very odd indeed.

Regards Rob
Author:  ThomasAH [ Mon May 02, 2016 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway change confusion
dmarch wrote:
It's working exactly as designed as far as I can see. If PF3 has to use wind direction it will always periodically check to see if AI become active for any runway and if so will announce the change. Once you requested a particular runway, however, further changes will not occur.
That is not the problem.

The bug is that PF3 did not announce the runway change from 33 to 15 after pressing hotkey 2.
Hotkey 2 at approach does not request a particular runway, but says "hey, give me some runway with ILS". At this point Approach should tell me which runway to expect, so I'm able to find and tune to the correct ILS frequency earlier than when getting the clearance, i.e. either
"Jersey 559 Runway change expect vectors for the ILS runway 15 Approach"
or "Jersey 559 (maybe something with heading) expect vectors for the ILS runway 15"

helix1250 wrote:
I didn't check the hotkey list for when coconnected to approach, hence me asking for a instrument approach that my mistake. But I guess by me doing that it forced PF3 to re-asses my approach, is that correct?
Correct.
Author:  helix1250 [ Mon May 02, 2016 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway change confusion
Thanks ThomasAH,

I understand what should have happened now, I should have been informed that I was going to be vectored to runway 15. But that that announcement didn't occure and instead it just sent me on the vectors to 15.

I wish there was a way to check why the AI would have been heading to 33, I had checked the winds via ASN at regular points on route and it was steady at 180 degrees. I'll contact AI software company I use to see if there is away it can be checked.

Cheers Rob
Author:  ThomasAH [ Mon May 02, 2016 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway change confusion
helix1250 wrote:
I wish there was a way to check why the AI would have been heading to 33, I had checked the winds via ASN at regular points on route and it was steady at 180 degrees. I'll contact AI software company I use to see if there is away it can be checked.
The log showed some changing winds. For a short time it was direction 255 at ground below your aircraft, and maybe the AI did not use the wind at the airport, but the wind near your aircraft.
Author:  helix1250 [ Mon May 02, 2016 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway change confusion
Many thanks ThomasAH, that wind you found may well answer the runway swap.

Thank you for checking for me :)

Regards Rob
Author:  martinlest [ Mon May 02, 2016 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway change confusion
I have had a number of issues with runway changes lately - yesterday I was given six changes within as many minutes. A 'limiter' (one change is surely enough on any one flight) would be good.
Author:  Rustydog [ Mon May 02, 2016 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway change confusion
martinlest wrote:
I have had a number of issues with runway changes lately - yesterday I was given six changes within as many minutes. A 'limiter' (one change is surely enough on any one flight) would be good.
I had that happen 3 flights in a row and thought something was broken but it hasn't happened since. It has happened on odd occasions before. I use ASN weather and suspect this has something to do with it. But a lock of some sort would be handy. Zigzagging makes passengers nervous. :lol:
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