OnCourse Software

Hi, regarding these are we only allowed one SID/STAR per runway? Do we have to enter these as part of the flight plan process each time we fly depending on direction of departure and arrival?

Or (ideally) have multiple options that ATC can offer us when descending out of Control airspace depending on our direction of flight? Eg: RNAVs

Thanks,
Mark

Only one named SID/STAR per runway (or the generic name), but you can use the PF3 Randomizer, see viewforum.php?f=10

hiflight wrote:

Hi, regarding these are we only allowed one SID/STAR per runway? Do we have to enter these as part of the flight plan process each time we fly depending on direction of departure and arrival?

Or (ideally) have multiple options that ATC can offer us when descending out of Control airspace depending on our direction of flight? Eg: RNAVs

Thanks,
Mark

On your first point currently only one SID and STAR can be entered for each runway. This has been raised before and an option for a "drop down" list was discussed. Thus allowing more than one SID say from a specific runway. This would facilitate choosing the correct SID for your flight plan.

On the second point if you are descending to an airport from a specific direction then a specific STAR would be used which connects to the last waypoint of your flightplan. The end of that STAR might or might not in real life be for one or two runways. The only way to check is to see the charts.

When you say Or (ideally) have multiple options that ATC can offer us you have to understand that it is not a random event. In that you don't know until you are told. As PIC you do know. It is in fact the legal responsibility of the PIC. What this entails is that you already know which STARs can be used that start from the end of your fpl. So in this case a drop down list would be useful where there is a runway switch causing you to use a different STAR. i.e. PF3 would take that into account and re assign it.

The SID point of view is much the same. Most of the time there will only be one SID that takes you from a specific runway to the start of your fpl. Sometimes there are two. But in those cases you must know why there are multiple SIDs. For example noise abatement, night time, terrain, restricted airspace at different times etc. Programmes like PFPX and Proatc do not know these and will often give the incorrect information. At the end of the day it isn't difficult to enter 7 characters into a box. The idea that the SID and or STAR are unknown until ATC assign them is rubbish!

In the long term I would like to see at least a facility for a drop down list that can be "initially" populated by the user. Then the user would only need to scan down the list and select the SID STAR for that particular route.

vololiberista wrote:

In the long term I would like to see at least a facility for a drop down list that can be "initially" populated by the user. Then the user would only need to scan down the list and select the SID STAR for that particular route.

While we're at long term wishes: The drop down list would be populated automatically by reading Navdatapro / Navigraph data, with the user still having to choose the correct one for the current flightplan.
That would be a nice compromise between the often demanded AIRAC-data integration in PF3 and the requirement of a thourough flightplanning including the choice of the correct SID and STAR.

RALF9636 wrote:

vololiberista wrote:

In the long term I would like to see at least a facility for a drop down list that can be "initially" populated by the user. Then the user would only need to scan down the list and select the SID STAR for that particular route.

While we're at long term wishes: The drop down list would be populated automatically by reading Navdatapro / Navigraph data, with the user still having to choose the correct one for the current flightplan.
That would be a nice compromise between the often demanded AIRAC-data integration in PF3 and the requirement of a thourough flightplanning including the choice of the correct SID and STAR.

Yes it would except that the airac data isn't free. Whilst it is possible to create flightplans using up to date airac cycles on free sites like Onlineflightplanner/Routefinder I don't want to have to pay a subscription for PF3 to do it as well because it isn't necessary. It might be possible where those that do have a subscription could populate the lists from there or otherwise manually. I think that kind of compromise would make PF3 very strong.

Agreed. It could be optional.
I guess many PF3 users already have a subscription for Navdatapro or Navigraph to use with their flightplanning software like PFPX and aircraft like PMDG.

vololiberista wrote:

The idea that the SID and or STAR are unknown until ATC assign them is rubbish!

The question is whether we want to fly realistically or not. Actually, the idea that pilots always fly a known published procedure is rubbish Look at the attached real-world routes. The same airport, the same runway, the same time, the same aircraft type, but two routings and both of them differ from the published procedure. In reality, ATC instructions, e.g. shortcuts and directs, modify the (known) standard procedures and create an element of uncertainty.

sbsim wrote:

vololiberista wrote:

The idea that the SID and or STAR are unknown until ATC assign them is rubbish!

The question is whether we want to fly realistically or not. Actually, the idea that pilots always fly a known published procedure is rubbish Look at the attached real-world routes. The same airport, the same runway, the same time, the same aircraft type, but two routings and both of them differ from the published procedure. In reality, ATC instructions, e.g. shortcuts and directs, modify the (known) standard procedures and create an element of uncertainty.

The point is that you MUST fly a published route unless ATC direct you otherwise. So published routes are and must be the starting point. For example I can fly the VEROB 1A STAR into Turin. Set VEROB as the last wypt in PF3 and ATC will vector me to rwy 36. That's about as real as it gets actually! Although the STAR actually ends at TOP it is rarely used for a/c coming from the NW (about 20% of the time) because it is a bit out of the way.

So in your flight planning you must account for published SIDs and STARs. Only ATC can deviate you unless you have an on board priority situation. Why ATC deviate you is because of weather, traffic etc. To which it is your duty as PIC to also be alert to. As PIC you plan to fly the published SID and STAR unless ATC say otherwise. What you don't do as PIC is sit back and wait to be told by ATC. Your route is planned and filed and ATC must have good reason to deviate you from that. The element of uncertainty as you put it can easily be replicated in PF3 as in the example I have shown. ATC certainly don't send you for a jolly around the skies for their entertainment. They must have good reason to deviate you.

RALF9636 wrote:

Agreed. It could be optional.
I guess many PF3 users already have a subscription for Navdatapro or Navigraph to use with their flightplanning software like PFPX and aircraft like PMDG.

Some of us don't. Because we don't need it So PF3 would have to have the option of manually adding SIDs and STARs to a list. I think this would be a long way off in terms of development but it certainly would be a big enhancement to PF3.

RALF9636 wrote:

Agreed. It could be optional.
I guess many PF3 users already have a subscription for Navdatapro or Navigraph to use with their flightplanning software like PFPX and aircraft like PMDG.

+1 for being optional, too, even if I recently bought a single-month subscription of Navigraph FMS to have all my add-ons (AS16, AivlaSoft EFB, FSC9, Majestic Dash8, PFPX) and FSX (using the free http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html) agreeing on the same set of navaids.