OnCourse Software

JohnY wrote:

It wasn't only the flight plan that gave me 11,500' to fly at, it was the PF3 controllers too. Starting at 2000' they gradually increased to altitude instructions to 11,500. So why were they giving these instructions :

I've increased all the FAF altitudes now to 18000' and hope this will resolve the problem until perhaps an update can include the alterations necessary to prevent these ATC contradictions?

Oh, and by the way. I didn't set the flight plan up. All I determined was the airplane, departure airport, destination airport and that it was VFR. P3D did the rest!

John

The PF3 controllers told you to fly to 11,500ft because of your badly set up fpl.

I don't have P3D but setting up a fpl in P3D must be somewhat similar to FS9 and FSX in which a cruising altitude is "offered" so that's the point where you need to change it.

I've increased all the FAF altitudes now to 18000'
You should not have to do that as it is not FAA territory. Reset Lisbon control to the default 8,000 and remake your fpl so that it does not exceed 3,500ft. The whole point is to inject some realism isn't it? Otherwise why bother!

and hope this will resolve the problem until perhaps an update can include the alterations necessary to prevent these ATC contradictions?
The ATC contradictions as you put it are down to your incorrectly made fpl and not PF3's fault. So if Dave does not find an actual error there will be nothing to update.

The moral of this story is garbage in garbage out. If you want to make a VFR fpl then make sure it stays in "uncontrolled" airspace. Which btw is real life! If during the fpl you want to cross or climb into controlled airspace then get IFR clearance which is also real life and also covered in PF3.

Ok - and while in flight how do I change to IFR from VFR? Shortcut 6 only gives higher altitudes.

John

You have to change to the FSS frequency first.

RALF9636 wrote:

You have to change to the FSS frequency first.

What happens in real life can't really be replicated in PF3 or any other ATC programme. In that I file a VFR flight plan (ok) but wish to transit controlled airspace I have to have SVFR clearance. "Special VFR clearance". Which is usually PPR "Prior permission required" before the fpl can be accepted. So unless Dave gives everyone his home telephone number lol it has to be done on the fly (pun intended). Also simmers excepted, you cannot go into controlled airspace unless you have an IFR rating and can speak English at or above ICAO level 4.

As I mentioned earlier the whole flight must be in uncontrolled airspace with the exception of the entry and exit points into and out of controlled airspace in which ATC can do with you what they will.

A typical scenario which you can see quite often on a clear day is light aircraft transiting the Heathrow TMA at 3,500ft. Initially they would be in contact with London Information and then request/told to contact Heathrow Approach about 5 minutes before entering the TMA and then handed back to London Information once leaving. They usually cross 90 degrees to the runway heading above the thresholds.
I did raise this point earlier regarding a user built database of real frequencies for VFR traffic. Certain sectors could have real frequencies and where not known revert to the default.
For the UK here is a list of all frequencies
http://www.airscene.co.uk/tinc?key=lcQ5 ... on_start=1

My goodness Voliberista that's a hell of a lot of different frequencies to look through. You would have thought they would have put them in alphabetical order. Thanks a lot for that. If nothing else it may be useful for flying VFR in the UK.

Now I have a couple of further questions and then you're off the hook.

As I understand you, even if I start with a VFR flight programmed into firstly P3D and then PF3 I can't fly it at the altitude P3D gives me for 'low altitude flights' but I can fly it at just below the FAF altitude of that region and I won't get constantly chivvied to fly IFR?

I'm not good with initials so can you tell me what (a) FSS is short for please and what do I click to enable me to change the FSS frequency 'on the fly'?
(b) What is TMA? Is it what I would call CAS (controlled air-space)?

John

FSS is Flight Service Station. You can look up the relevant frequency in the pf3_display.exe window. Then you have to dial that frequency in the COM1 unit of your aircraft.

I leave the other questions to Vololiberista.

TMA is Terminal Manoeuvering Area.

Not having P3D I can't answer for how it generates an altitude. However, notwithstanding, if you are a good pilot you should always check what any computer generated fpl gives you with either real life charts or the boundaries that PF3 sets up as default. If you want to be realistic then go with the charts which will show you the boundaries and altitudes of any controlled airspace and then couple that with the local airport ceilings. Then you can fly a VFR fpl that would be realistic for that region and route in real life.
Adjusting Control Centre altitudes in PF3 to 18,000ft in ICAO territory (excepting mountainous areas of course) is a bit of a cop out as in real life the fpl discussed in this thread would be rejected by ATC.

So stay below the ceilings at the airports and if on a long x country flight stay below the default or user set Control Centre ceiling and you should arrive at your destination in one piece.


When it can all go wrong!.... Many years ago a fellow training pilot was returning from the West of England to Redhill EGKR. He flew, so he thought parallel with the Southern boundary of the Heathrow TMA whereas he was in fact roughly 500metres inside it. A week after he landed he got a knock on his door. The police had arrived to "arrest" him. He was eventually taken to court by the UK Civil Aviation Authority and was fined £10,000. He never flew again!!

And another example of not paying attention....


On 12th of January 2011, at about 1535hrs, a Socata aircraft registration
N850TV was about 7-8 nautical miles out from Birmingham airport on a
NDB/DME approach to runway 15 with three passengers on board. The
commander, Mr Visentini, was instructed by ATC to transfer to the Tower
frequency – 118.30MHz. Mr Visentini read back the frequency correctly.
However, he had pre-loaded an incorrect frequency - 118.03MHz - before his
flight had commenced from Italy. The Tower Controller made a number of
radio calls to N850TV, including an instruction to ‘go-around’ but received no
response. A Flybe passenger aircraft was stationary on runway 15 before
threshold. The commander of the Flybe aircraft heard the radio calls made by
the Tower Controller to N850TV and he could see N850TV on his aircraft’s
Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS). N850TV was observed from the
control tower and passed over the point where the Flybe aircraft was holding.
When asked by ATC why he had landed without clearance, Mr Visentini said
that he had thought he had a radio malfunction; he had not seen the Flybe
aircraft and believed the runway was free. This was a very serious incident
due to the proximity of N850TV to the aircraft lined up on the runway, and
therefore prosecution was recommended. This incident was also investigated
by the AAIB and UKAB.

On 9th January 2012, at Solihull Magistrates’ Court, Mr Visentini was
sentenced for one offence of flying within an aerodrome traffic zone without
causing a continuous watch to be maintained on the appropriate radio
frequency (Rule 45(6) Rules of the Air Regulations 2007), having pleaded
guilty at an earlier hearing, and one offence of landing on a runway when
there was another aircraft on the runway (Rule 14(2) Rules of the Air
Regulations 2007), to which he pleaded guilty on the day. He was fined
£1,000 for each offence and ordered to pay costs to the CAA of £4,996.82.

Thanks for the explanations chaps.

And, Dave, you've made me shudder. This afternoon at LEPA Palma De Mallorca I was cleared to land and on the point of touching down when an airbus turned on to the runway. I judged I was beyond the point of no return so I put it down! If I had tried a go-around the plane would have stalled and probably crashed.

Mind you. It would have been an injustice if I was fined for that as the controllers should never cleared the airbus to take-off.

Flying in Spain these last few days has certainly turned out to be an adventure. Every flight has had it moments. I'll be a nervous wreck by the time I get west in to France!

John

JohnY, you talked multiple times here about the FAF (final approach fix) altitude, I think you mixed that up with the TA (transition altitude).
In PF3 -> Options #1 -> Trans Alt & Alt Baro Calls you can change the TAs of each region, but more important, you can disable the checkbox for "Use Transition Alt for VFR max alt". After turning this off, PF3 will allow VFR flights up 18000 feet.