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IFR Clearance with initial altitude below field elevation

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airforce2
Post subject: IFR Clearance with initial altitude below field elevation
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:21 pm
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Departing West Yellowstone (KWYS) with field elevation of 6649 ft, I called FSS for clearance and got an IFR clearance with an initial climb altitude of 4000 ft (2649 ft below field elevation). Passengers very confused when I sounded the dive alarm and blew the ballast tanks.

Log attached.

Regards

Bob Scott

Attachments
debug_monitor - KWYS.zip
(67.71 KiB) Downloaded 183 times


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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance with initial altitude below field elevatio
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:44 pm
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Posts: 986
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:27 pm
 
Code: Select all
[WP0]
sWPID=KWYS
sWPType=A
sWPLat=044.69
sWPLon=-111.12
sWPCtr=73
sWPSec=13
sWPFreq=132.40
sWPAlt=0
Accent=23
Backup=23
Dist=00
Route=
I have never seen "sWPAlt=0" for the departure airport, I always have the airport altitude here (even if it is -11 for EHAM).
Another strange thing: You seem to have SIDs enabled (SID=1 in PF3.ini), and later the logs contains "End SID at WP: 2", but:
Code: Select all
10/20/2016 10:24:16 AM: 660 - SID Feature is OFF
Maybe PF3 is confused because you want to fly a SID from an uncontrolled airport?
Code: Select all
10/20/2016 10:16:13 AM: 920 - Transcript: 'Frontier 213 Roger. We'll open your flight plan at 13  you're cleared to Kilo Bravo Zulu November Climb and maintain 4 thousand Departure 118.6  '
10/20/2016 10:24:16 AM: 750 - Transcript: 'Kilo Whiskey Yankee Sierra (Local) Traffic Frontier 213 Departing runway 1 to the southwest  '

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance with initial altitude below field elevatio
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:03 pm
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I could not reproduce this, but I'm already using 3.2.1, which is the current beta and has a different problem with SID altitudes fixed. Maybe that fix helps here, too?

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airforce2
Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance with initial altitude below field elevatio
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:02 pm
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Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:43 pm
 
Maybe PF3 is confused because you want to fly a SID from an uncontrolled airport?
Code: Select all
10/20/2016 10:16:13 AM: 920 - Transcript: 'Frontier 213 Roger. We'll open your flight plan at 13  you're cleared to Kilo Bravo Zulu November Climb and maintain 4 thousand Departure 118.6  '
10/20/2016 10:24:16 AM: 750 - Transcript: 'Kilo Whiskey Yankee Sierra (Local) Traffic Frontier 213 Departing runway 1 to the southwest  '
[/quote]


Don't know...but SIDs from uncontrolled airports are a fact of life, as this specific case (LOW1.LOW SID at KWYS) illustrates.

Also, not sure why the unicom call gets the runway wrong, as I was departing off 19, not 1. I saw the same thing yesterday departing from KTVL...it made the departure call for the opposite runway, rather than the one I was departing on.

Regards

Bob Scott
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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance with initial altitude below field elevatio
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:30 pm
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Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:27 pm
 
airforce2 wrote:
Don't know...but SIDs from uncontrolled airports are a fact of life, as this specific case (LOW1.LOW SID at KWYS) illustrates.
Ah, I did not know that.
airforce2 wrote:
Also, not sure why the unicom call gets the runway wrong, as I was departing off 19, not 1. I saw the same thing yesterday departing from KTVL...it made the departure call for the opposite runway, rather than the one I was departing on.
Code: Select all
10/20/2016 10:24:16 AM: 660 - Runway 1 0 is being used by AI Traffic! #A
10/20/2016 10:24:16 AM: 660 - Active Runway is set to 1
Wind direction was 130, but AI takes precedence when determining the active runway.
Do you use an external weather engine? Then you might want to reset AI by briefly setting time compression to x8 after it became active.
But yes, maybe PF3 should allow you to depart from the "wrong" runway and announce that correctly.

I'll file a bug report in the beta forum to discuss this.

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airforce2
Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance with initial altitude below field elevatio
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:45 pm
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How does the pilot determine the active rwy at an uncontrolled field in PF3?

Regards

Bob Scott
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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance with initial altitude below field elevatio
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:21 am
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airforce2 wrote:
How does the pilot determine the active rwy at an uncontrolled field in PF3?
1. Looking at other aircraft, listening to Unicom/Multicom.
2. Asking FSS for wind or determine wind by other means.
3. Rolling a die.
Or decoding the PF3 debug log and checking there :)

For 1. there are some helpful tools which can show details of AI. I use SuperTrafficBoard, but there are others.

But in the end, if you depart from a certain runway, your VCP should announce that you do that, even if it is a different direction from what other AI (or wind) indicate. That's why I filed a bug report :)

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