OnCourse Software

Hi Dave,

I usually do all my flights with a SID at departure and vectors at the destination. My last two flights however, I have tried a STAR approach, but without success on both occasions

I identified the start of STAR in my FP and requested "Cleared to Finals" (key 1) as I passed TOD. In both flights, I got no verbal response from ATC and after that point ATC seemed to just go "dead". On both flights I continued my approach and contacted Tower when established on the ILS and was given "cleared to land" as normal (although I had to contact Tower manually as my VCP fell asleep.

So, all seemed to work as it should, although no verbal acknowledgement from ATC and VCP struck dumb.

Any ideas what's gone wrong here?

Thanks
Bill

Have you read section 20.5 in the PF3 User Guide?

Indeed I have

Now, there might be some confusion on my part. But, on an earlier beta (3.21.99 I think), I asked the question about the new SID/STAR feature and the response was (IIRC) that there was no need to tick the SID Active or STAR Active checkboxes if the SID and STAR End/Start points have been identified in the FP. In all my flights where I use only a SID, I mark the End of the SID in the FP, but do not tick the SID Active checkbox, and all works as it should. Hence, I thought my understanding of the new feature was correct. So, on my first attempts at using a STAR, I did not tick the SID Active or STAR Active checkboxes. Would that cause this issue? Is there still a need to tick these boxes in some scenarios? Are you able to clarify?

Thanks
Bill

You need to check the STAR box if you wish to fly the procedure so as not to receive vectors.

You also do not need to request 'cleared to finals'. When you reach the start of your STAR you will be cleared to fly the procedure and when you're established just switch/contact Tower

A320Flyer wrote: *

Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:01 pm

In all my flights where I use only a SID, I mark the End of the SID in the FP, but do not tick the SID Active checkbox, and all works as it should. Hence, I thought my understanding of the new feature was correct. So, on my first attempts at using a STAR, I did not tick the SID Active or STAR Active checkboxes. Would that cause this issue? Is there still a need to tick these boxes in some scenarios?

The situation is a bit different for the SID and STAR checkboxes. The SID feature is activated by either checking the SID box or specifying an end-of-SID waypoint. In either case you will not get an initial heading off the runway and will not get vectors for departure.

The STAR checkbox is different because it specifically controls the behaviour of PF3 after the last PF3 waypoint. If the box is unchecked, you will get vectors after the last waypoint. If the box is checked, you will not get vectors, and when you reach the last waypoint you will be cleared to perform the approach to the active runway at pilot's discretion.

This is separate from setting a waypoint as your start-of-STAR. You can set a waypoint as your start-of-STAR and still choose to be vectored after the last waypoint by leaving the STARs box unchecked.

If you think you may want vectors after the last waypoint, leave the STARs box unchecked before the flight. When PF3 begins vectoring you at the last waypoint, you can either continue with the vectored approach or hit Hotkey 1 to request clearance at pilot's discretion, which will cancel vectoring and allow you to complete the approach on your own.

See also p. 95 in the User Guide for more info

Thanks to both of you for the explanations - much appreciated.

As I had not checked the Activate STAR box, should I have waited until after the Start of STAR waypoint before requesting Cleared to Finals (key 1)? Is this the reason I didn't hear my VCP make the request? And also I didn't hear any confirmation from ATC?

Thanks
Bill

I took a fast look at your log and I'm not sure what happened, so we'll need to ask Dave to take a look. You set a waypoint for end of SID but I can't see that a waypoint was designated in PF3 as start of STAR, and apparently you never got a handoff to Approach.

One thing I did notice is your last waypoint (ABLAK) is 78 miles from the destination, which is too far. Your last waypoint should be 25-45 miles out if possible.

Regarding use of Hotkey 1 to request clearance at pilot's discretion, I use it when in contact with Approach. I don't use it when in contact with Center.

Again hopefully Dave can see what went amiss during your last flight.

Thanks again, Dan.

I’m pretty sure that ABLAK was set as Start of STAR, because I specifically wanted to try a STAR approach. I’ve checked my FP and confirmed it still is set. Reading the manual, the Request Cleared to Finals should work when connected to Control, Centre or Radar and I was connected to Paris Centre IIRC.

Maybe Dave can shed some light on this.


Cheers
Bill

A320Flyer wrote: *

Fri Mar 22, 2024 8:19 am

I’m pretty sure that ABLAK was set as Start of STAR, because I specifically wanted to try a STAR approach. I’ve checked my FP and confirmed it still is set.

The start-of-STAR designation is used to start your STAR at a waypoint OTHER than the last waypoint. It is not used at the last waypoint. If you simply want to fly an approach without vectors you just tick the STARs checkbox and do not set a STAR entry point.

I can't say if this caused all of the problems you experienced, but since ABLAK is 78 miles from the destination I would suggest starting the STAR at ABLAK and adding a waypoint after ABLAK, perhaps about 30 miles from the airport. You can retry the flight after adding the additional waypoint and see how things go. If the STARs checkbox is unchecked you will get vectors after the last waypoint; if the box is checked, you will not.

Dan77 wrote: *

Fri Mar 22, 2024 9:23 am

[quote=A320Flyer post_id=27167 time=<a href="tel:1711095559">1711095559</a> user_id=1546]
I’m pretty sure that ABLAK was set as Start of STAR, because I specifically wanted to try a STAR approach. I’ve checked my FP and confirmed it still is set.

The start-of-STAR designation is used to start your STAR at a waypoint OTHER than the last waypoint. It is not used at the last waypoint. If you simply want to fly an approach without vectors you just tick the STARs checkbox and do not set a STAR entry point.

I can't say if this caused all of the problems you experienced, but since ABLAK is 78 miles from the destination I would suggest starting the STAR at ABLAK and adding a waypoint after ABLAK, perhaps about 30 miles from the airport. You can retry the flight after adding the additional waypoint and see how things go. If the STARs checkbox is unchecked you will get vectors after the last waypoint; if the box is checked, you will not.
[/quote]

I might be wrong but this seems to be contrary to what’s in the manual

For example, if flying in the USA where STARS are very long, you are unlikely (I think) to be in contact with Approach at the start of the STAR. I think Dave needs to weigh in here.

But thanks for all your help, Dan. It’s much appreciated. As soon as I’m off grandpa duties, I’ll be trying your suggestions

Cheers
Bill