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Approach vectors not provided

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fltent1184
Post subject: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:00 pm
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Hi, I did a short flight between EGCC & EGGW. The flightplan was EGCC LISTO2R LISTO HON ASKEY2H EGGW (this was the flightplan entered in FMS). Cruise altitude was 13,000ft & aircraft was ATR 72-500. I also used FS Global real weather.

In PF3, I loaded the flightplan as: EGCC LISTO HON EGGW with end of SID indicated at LISTO & start of STAR indicated at HON (as mentioned in respective SID & STAR plates). I had un-ticked "STARs Active" so as to receive vectors to final to active runway at Luton (as required by STAR procedure as well). At HON, PF3 cleared me for ASKEY2H STAR, handed over to approach & cleared to descend to 5,000ft. After this, things got strange. As I passed CLIPY, I was asked to descend to 500ft! Ideally I would have expected runway assignment & approach vectors at this point but I did not get any. After a short while, I was cleared to pilot discretion to runway 26 at 3,000ft. After this, I manually flew the remaining part of the STAR & joined the outer marker for runway 26 & executed a normal landing.

Questions:
1. Why did PF3 ask me to descend to 500ft?
2. Despite un-checking "STARs Active", why weren't vectors provided to the active runway? HON is located > 30NM from EGGW & that should have been sufficient for PF3 to provide adequate vectors to final.
3. Another strange thing I observed - When I was handed over to approach by center, pilot mentioned the current altitude as 12,500ft. However, I was at 13,000ft with the correct altimeter dialed in.

I tried the above route with the same FP as well & again I was never provided vectors.

I am attaching the logs for the flight.

Thanks!

Attachments
Logs_EGCC_EGGW.zip
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Dan77
Post subject: Re: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:22 pm
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I think the problem here is that you set your start-of-STAR waypoint as the last waypoint in your PF3 flight plan. Try removing the start-of-STAR designation from HON and see if that makes a difference. Alternatively you can add an additional waypoint after HON to your PF3 flight plan but make sure it is at least 20 nm from the destination airport.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:47 pm
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Location: LIMZ
 
This is a very short flight of about 12 minutes airborne.
[ attachment ]
short.jpg (8.32 KiB) Viewed 8538 times
It contains the TOP 7Q SID from LIMZ and the LEV 1A STAR. MF503 is about 22nm from LIMF. I can do this flight also with the STAR turned off and with vectors instead.

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fltent1184
Post subject: Re: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:55 am
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An update - so I took Dan's advice & added CLIPY as well to the flightplan (approx 20NM from EGGW & part of ASKE2H STAR) and indicated HON as start of STAR. This time around, PF3 provided vectors correctly to rwy 26.

Henceforth, I will try adding waypoints post start of STAR. I will report back if I face any issues. Thanks!

What was strange though is that when I did EGGW - EGCC route & I used the DAYN1B STAR, I had only added LESTA as the final waypoint & indicated that this was the beginning of STAR. PF3 provided me vectors correctly with accurate descent profile into EGCC. LESTA was >50NM from EGCC & I didn't face the issue which I had while executing the approach into Luton.

Also I solved the altitude report issue - apparently I had dialed in the incorrect altimeter (I did not reset it to 1012 as the transition altitude was 6000ft & I was at 13,000ft). I will keep a note of this in future. Feature suggestion - would it be possible to add a message by the co-pilot to do an altimeter check once we cross the transition altitude?

Thanks!
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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:18 am
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Location: LIMZ
 
fltent1184 wrote: *  Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:55 am
Feature suggestion - would it be possible to add a message by the co-pilot to do an altimeter check once we cross the transition altitude?

Thanks!
From an MCE point of view that would be a good idea. Otherwise it would have to be part of your normal check-lists. As it should be anyway!

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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:23 am
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fltent1184 wrote: *  Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:55 am
An update - so I took Dan's advice & added CLIPY as well to the flightplan (approx 20NM from EGGW & part of ASKE2H STAR) and indicated HON as start of STAR. This time around, PF3 provided vectors correctly to rwy 26.

Henceforth, I will try adding waypoints post start of STAR. I will report back if I face any issues. Thanks!

What was strange though is that when I did EGGW - EGCC route & I used the DAYN1B STAR, I had only added LESTA as the final waypoint & indicated that this was the beginning of STAR. PF3 provided me vectors correctly with accurate descent profile into EGCC. LESTA was >50NM from EGCC & I didn't face the issue which I had while executing the approach into Luton.

Also I solved the altitude report issue - apparently I had dialed in the incorrect altimeter (I did not reset it to 1012 as the transition altitude was 6000ft & I was at 13,000ft). I will keep a note of this in future. Feature suggestion - would it be possible to add a message by the co-pilot to do an altimeter check once we cross the transition altitude?

Thanks!
You shouldn't be marking your last waypoint as the STAR starting point... if you have STARs set to 'active' PF3 assumes that is where your STAR begins.... the option is intended for you to mark a waypoint before the last waypoint in your flight plan

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
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massimo390
Post subject: Re: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:37 pm
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dmarch wrote: *  Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:23 am
fltent1184 wrote: *  Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:55 am
An update - so I took Dan's advice & added CLIPY as well to the flightplan (approx 20NM from EGGW & part of ASKE2H STAR) and indicated HON as start of STAR. This time around, PF3 provided vectors correctly to rwy 26.

Henceforth, I will try adding waypoints post start of STAR. I will report back if I face any issues. Thanks!

What was strange though is that when I did EGGW - EGCC route & I used the DAYN1B STAR, I had only added LESTA as the final waypoint & indicated that this was the beginning of STAR. PF3 provided me vectors correctly with accurate descent profile into EGCC. LESTA was >50NM from EGCC & I didn't face the issue which I had while executing the approach into Luton.

Also I solved the altitude report issue - apparently I had dialed in the incorrect altimeter (I did not reset it to 1012 as the transition altitude was 6000ft & I was at 13,000ft). I will keep a note of this in future. Feature suggestion - would it be possible to add a message by the co-pilot to do an altimeter check once we cross the transition altitude?

Thanks!
You shouldn't be marking your last waypoint as the STAR starting point... if you have STARs set to 'active' PF3 assumes that is where your STAR begins.... the option is intended for you to mark a waypoint before the last waypoint in your flight plan
I think the program should warn the user and reject that action. Same for other user misakes.
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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:05 pm
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massimo390 wrote: *  Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:37 pm
dmarch wrote: *  Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:23 am
You shouldn't be marking your last waypoint as the STAR starting point... if you have STARs set to 'active' PF3 assumes that is where your STAR begins.... the option is intended for you to mark a waypoint before the last waypoint in your flight plan
I think the program should warn the user and reject that action. Same for other user misakes.
While you should not select the last waypoint as start of STAR to get the behaviour you want, doing this is not automatically an error.
If someone sometimes wants to fly a STAR and sometimes not, this can be used to dynamically enable the STAR feature just for this flight without changing the options.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:26 pm
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Location: LIMZ
 
massimo390 wrote: *  Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:37 pm

I think the program should warn the user and reject that action. Same for other user misakes.
It need be only covered in the user manual. It isn't a mistake as you put it (in fact quite the opposite it is intentional). Nor is it a bug. Look back to my post where I have indicated a flight from LIMZ to LIMF. The last wypt is the start of the STAR. This was a test fpl during early beta testing. And it does work. Both as a STAR and vectoring. Note though that the last wypt MF503 is 22nm from Caselle. The whole fpl is only 41nm!
The end of SID is 13nm from LIMZ a 6nm gap between that and the start of the STAR at MF503.

Yes, there maybe the risk that the last wypt selected as a STAR might not work. Most likely because it is too close to the destination. In which case do as Dave suggested and add another.

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massimo390
Post subject: Re: Approach vectors not provided
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:30 pm
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vololiberista wrote: *  Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:26 pm
massimo390 wrote: *  Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:37 pm

I think the program should warn the user and reject that action. Same for other user misakes.
It need be only covered in the user manual. It isn't a mistake as you put it (in fact quite the opposite it is intentional). Nor is it a bug.

I think you misunderstood my comments, I did not mentioned a program bug or mistake, I said "user mistake". So if we set anything that will lead to an unusual or unexpected behavior the program should warn us or even reject that setting, flight plan, etc. This way any user even newbie can have a better experience from day 1.
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