OnCourse Software

Just tested the latest beta x.x.39 and can report that the automatic start of the WebDisplay server is working fine
However their were some issues with this flight
1) Arriving at the runway holding point the CP didn't contact tower to ask clearance for take-off, I had to initiated myself.
2) After TOC I didn't get any instructions (PF3 was running as I could hear ATC chatter)
Only after I was way to close to the airport I changed to the Approach freq myself.
Before that I already started descending but no "nagging" from ATC. Only when I changed to Approach ATC told me to maintain FL260
but I was already at FL200. Then for a while I kept getting "correct" instructions to descend and runway assignment.
At the end I ignored the instructions because I knew I would't make anyway, so I followed my own instructions.
After landing I kept getting flight direction instruction from ATC

An additional question; I know how to delete or alter a waypoint in PF3 but how can I add one? When loading the flight I got message that the
last waypoint was to far away.
Cheers

1. That issue has now been fixed and will be in the next beta... in the meantime you could extract the attached into your main PF3 folder and that should solve the issue for you

2. The main problem here is your last waypoint was 133 miles from your destination. This causes an issue because PF3 calculates your TOD and for this flight that was 76 miles. Now, the current logic in PF3 says IF you are closer to your destination than your TOD AND you are heading toward the penultimate waypoint THEN start the descent. Well, because your penultimate WP was 133 miles from your destination this would never be activated. There's not too much I can do about that I'm afraid because once you hit the penultimate waypoint you enter the approach phase in PF3 and that dictates your descent in a very different way. In the meantime I would suggest you set your last waypoint to be approximately 25-40 miles out.

To answer your additional question, no, you can't add a waypoint in PF3 and you really need to check such things in your flight planner.

So I just finished another flight with the updated TGS and unfortunately I have some (not related) issues again with this flight
1)Before arriving at the holding point I had to cross the same runway. So I requested continue taxi which I got.
At the same time in the ACARS window I was instructed to change freq, which obviously didn't do.
2) This time arriving at the holding point I got instruction to contact tower to request for departure, working fine.
However, after receiving for take-off clearance I then heard a message to an other aircraft to exit the runway and also the other aircraft confirming off the active runway. Also while taking-off, AI were crossing the runway. I guess PF3 can't monitor the AI because I never should have had clearance for take off, just to line-up.
3) Climbing, I got alt steps every 2000 ft until FL2xx (didn't take it down)
4) Again TOC came to late, first I got descend from FL320 to FL290 and had to wait at least 5 minutes after reaching FL290 for further instructions.
Again with steps of 2000-3000ft.
I'm sorry, and I'm not claiming that PF3 is the issue, but I get really, really so frustrated with the last part of the flight, landing.
It never works out, always too late, descending step instruction coming too late or wrong vectors. As you can see in the log, the last vector with clearance to ILS18 got me flying away from the runway,
no way I could have intercepted the ILS if I didn't decide to turn myself.
If I do something wrong on my side, please someone enlighten me as, again, I can't state enough how much I'm frustrated.
Again I just ESC out of the flight during landing as I knew it wouldn't work out, again. And it happens to be that exactly this part of the flight, landing, is the part that is the most interesting of the flight, at least for me.
Cheers,
Luc

Well, quite a bit to go through here...

1. This was a bug which has now been corrected

2. This most certainly shouldn't happen but I think you were maybe just unlucky. PF3 doesn't control AI traffic, that's completely down to MSFS. Now once you're cleared for takeoff we do freeze any ground traffic to prevent runway incursion. However, we have to be really careful because if something has literally just entered the runway we can't freeze it otherwise you could never takeoff, so we can only freeze traffic within a certain radius of the runway. As I say, I think you were just unlucky.

3. I don't think this is a repeat of the elusive issue we've seen before where the randomizer function gets stuck because the climb steps were not all 2,000', mostly yes, but not all.

4. TOD was about right I believe and was started at about 94 miles from your destination. With regard the step down for descent, this is handled differently from climbs and is predominantly determined by the altitudes set for each waypoint. The reason why they appeared to be at 2,000' intervals was due to the close proximity of the waypoints. For instance:

RUKER @ 32000
TLD @ 29000 (this is only 13 miles from RUKER)
D130F @ 27000 (this is only 6 miles from TLD)
D130P @ 23000 (this is only 10 miles from D103F)
BUREX @ 21000 (this is only 6 miles from D130P)
D227R @ 14000 (this is 20 miles from BUREX)

So you can see that due to the small distance between most of the above it would have been impossible to descend you any quicker.

Now, unlike your previous log I would suggest your penultimate waypoint was too close to your destination at only 18 miles, particularly as the altitude was set to 9000'. However, having said that it IS workable and I don't believe you would have had any issues had you stuck to your flight plan, which you didn't. And due to that you descent would have been seriously delayed whilst PF3 was waiting for you to reach each waypoint and then deciding you must have missed it and bumped to the next, only to repeat the situation. In fact you even missed the penultimate waypoint and by the time PF3 realised you were only 10 miles from your destination. Also, the last heading you were given before being cleared for the 18 ILS was 155, which was spot on

.

This morning I did some "investigating" myself because I really want to understand how the interaction is between Flightplan and PF3.
First off, yes I didn't follow the FP, that's my mistake. What happened is that I didn't put in the STAR into the MCDU of the FBW a32nx.
However I'm not so convinced that the last vector 155 was correct (but ofcourse I can be mistaken) as while flying I follow on LNM (littlenavmap) moving map and I'm pretty sure that I got this vector when I was just past the runway so flying that direction I couldn't have intercepted the ILS anymore, hence later I made a turn to the right so I would fly back in the direction of the runway. Maybe I got the instruction just before I crossed the ILS and started the turn too late, that can be.
So now back to my little investigation. I loaded the same flightplan and I made some screenshots.
The first screenshot shows an error I got and had to report to OncourseSoftware.
The next one shows the loaded FP with the different FL. There I'm already puzzled, where do these FL come from?
I guess calculated by FP3 because they're not in the (enclosed) Flightplan.
So calculated based on what? Again I guess PF3 uses the airplane characteristics as indicated when loading the FlightPlan.
See last screenshot. You noticed that I actually exaggerated in the Descent rate (1000fpm) to "force" FP3 to give me an early TOD, as least that what I assumed.
Then in the third screenshot you can see that I tried to adjust the FL in the FP based on the FL I got from LNM (see enclosed print.pdf)
But there I got an error and could not save the flightplan. I did delete WP11 but it seems that FP3 didn't take that into account.
I laso included the FP as prepared by Simbrief.
@Dave, please bear with me, I really want to understand how the interaction is between all "players" and so I can start enjoy flying again.
Cheers,
Luc

Hi Luc

Quote:

The first screenshot shows an error I got and had to report to OncourseSoftware.

I assume this was a one-off and it's been okay since?

Quote:

The next one shows the loaded FP with the different FL. There I'm already puzzled, where do these FL come from?

The cruise altitude is take from your flight plan and then PF3 works out a flight profile for you. This may not always be what you desire, which is why we provide a means by which you can change it.

Quote:

Then in the third screenshot you can see that I tried to adjust the FL in the FP based on the FL I got from LNM (see enclosed print.pdf)
But there I got an error and could not save the flightplan. I did delete WP11 but it seems that FP3 didn't take that into account.

You need to adjust your altitudes before removing a waypoint, because the waypoint is still there even though you can't see it and is taken into account when adjusting the profile

dmarch wrote: *

Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:04 pm

Hi Luc

Quote:
The first screenshot shows an error I got and had to report to OncourseSoftware.

I assume this was a one-off and it's been okay since?

I didn't try with another FP yet but with this one it always comes back

dmarch wrote: *

Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:04 pm

The cruise altitude is take from your flight plan and then PF3 works out a flight profile for you. This may not always be what you desire, which is why we provide a means by which you can change it.

I do understand that and it doesn't have to be what I desire but at least it has to be feasible. In your previous post you stated that the last waypoint TOBEK was at 9000ft and might be to high but it's PF3 who puts it there. Also, what is the point of having a descend rate specified if PF3 doesn't take that into account. To me you have a cruise latitude and a landing altitude so PF3 knows how much I have to descend and at what rate I can do that.
Just like in LittleNavMap, I have my aircraft (FBW a32nx) profile that I put in and LNM uses this to calculate my descend path and does that correctly as you can see in the print.pdf I attached previously. (And TOBEK being at 6000ft)
If there're constraints I understand I have to put them manually into the waypoints, but I hope without constraints I don't have to change the altitudes
of the waypoints in every flight just to have a descent that is feasible for the aircraft I'm flying with (without using speedbrakes. As one pilot once stated, speedbrakes are for my mistakes, not those of ATC)

dmarch wrote: *

Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:04 pm

You need to adjust your altitudes before removing a waypoint, because the waypoint is still there even though you can't see it and is taken into account when adjusting the profile

I tried that but then I get into a catch 22 because I cant have the previous waypoint lower than the one I want to remove and I can't delete the waypoint which gives this problem.
Cheers,
Luc

Quote:

I didn't try with another FP yet but with this one it always comes back

Very strange, I've loaded your FP here with no issue

Quote:

In your previous post you stated that the last waypoint TOBEK was at 9000ft and might be to high but it's PF3 who puts it there.

I realised after posting that that your destination airport is at 2,000'. If you add the 3,000' for your FAF that's 5,000'. So, TOBEK was 11 miles from your FAF and descending from 9,000' to 5,000' is just about right IMO

You really can't compare PF3 to LittleMap... PF3 is not a flight planner. It's almost impossible to get a flight profile correct for all situations because PF3 knows nothing about the surround are, re obstacles, etc. Having said that you say LittleMap and your other FP's place TOBEK at 6000 seems a little low for me, but then I'm not a real pilot. If you want TOBEK at 6,000 just change it.

Quote:

I tried that but then I get into a catch 22 because I cant have the previous waypoint lower than the one I want to remove and I can't delete the waypoint which gives this problem.

You have to adjust the altitude for the waypoint you want to remove, so the profile is correct. Then you can remove it.