OnCourse Software

Hello.

I need some explanation or maybe program needs some fix/rework, how to deal with runway change before first waypoint of STAR . In normal conditions program behave perfectly, problem comes when ATC changes runway right before reaching first STAR waypoint.
I will explain it on simple example.
Flight from ENRY to EPSC Briefing:
I have planed and configured flight like on the screenshot bellow:


From ENRY SID MOFLU1E rwy 30 ends in moglu wtp.
Before flight weather at EPSC shows wind 290/4 so rwy 31 in USE
EPSC has one runway and two STAR procedures for inbound planes from North OBDEJ1B for rwy 31 and OBDEJ1A for rwy 13.
Due to weather forecast for EPSC wind 290/4 I am loading flight plan with predicted rwy 31 and STAR OBDEJ1B (OBDEJ, SC529, SC528, ZOCEK) setting hold „H” and first waypoint for STAR „ST” in WPT OBDEJ

STAR Configuration for EPSC

When everything is ready I am connecting PF3 with predicted STAR RWY 31 to P3D and enjoying the flight up to the approach.

~About 100NM before EPSC I got PF3 ATIS information that rwy 31 is not in use, wind is ~120/5 so RWY 13 is in use but loaded to PF3 flight plans keeps STAR wpts from STAR rwy 31. Ok, I am continuing descending, reprogrammed FMC for other STAR approach, everything is nice and somewhere near OBDEJ wpt (STAR procedure starts here), according to wind direction, ATC gives information for me:
„Fair LN032 continue approach via OBDEJ1A remain this frequency I have traffic for you” (or something like this)

Here the circus starts

So I passed wpt OBDEJ (first STAR wpt which is common for two procedures), going to ORBOF according ATC instruction STAR OBDEJ1A).
In normal situation without STAR change, I would go to SC529, then in half way to SC528 Control handoff me to Approach (because it is penultimate wpt in STAR), then ~5NM before ZOCEK Approach handoff me to Tower with nice instruction what I love:
„Fair LN032 continue approach at Zulu Oscar Charlie Echo Kilo descent to 3500ft contact Tower at 119.50 when established ILS localizer” (or something like this), And I am happy to have nice experience of PF3.
In situation when STAR has been changed due to wind change you can see in pf3_display that program is waiting for me to flyover the SC528 and ZOCEK what will not happen now, because I am on other approach and currently heading to ORBOF.
Control will not handoff me to Approach, because program is waiting for me to close up to the penultimate wpt in STAR SC528. Finally Approach will not handoff me to Tower near ORBOF because program is waiting for me to flyover ZOCEK.
So I had to forced PF3 to contact with approach and descent to lower altitude. I found approach freq in pf3_display, contacted and I could cheat myself that everything is ok .
Over ORBOF decided to contact with Tower by changing freq to Tower without Approach permission, TWR freq obtained from pf3_display. Unfortunately list with available shortcuts in pf3_display was blank, seems that something must unlock inside the program and cheating with force changing freq to tower to report landing will not work. I landed without communications with tower. Lel SQ7600 ^^

In another tries of the same flight, I checked some possibilities how to workaround those last two waypoints SC528 and ZOCEK not to fly over them but force somehow to contact me to tower during other rwy and changed STAR. Being under Approach survivalence I tried options from pf3_display „1” go to final under pilot discretion but nothing happen, tried to report airport in sight but nothing happen , finally last chance Shift+Ctrl+W (warp to selected waypoint during the flight/request runway change, I warped myself to last wpt in loaded flight plan: ZOCEK approach handoff me to Tower and and Tower gave me clearance to land rwy 13 but I was on other side of the airport hahaha. So we can solve this issues by warping to wpt but it is not so real procedure .

My ideas to fix it:
1. Of course we can block weather modelling programs to not update weather, just use static weather for flight with frozen time. Then we will be sure of rwy in use and STAR. We can load dedicated flight plan for this rwy and STAR. Does the static weather good flight experience? Rather not. It is temporary solution but not perfect.
2. We can block runways for landings in PF3 STARS/SID options,

now the wind may change around 360 deg at any speed but problem will come when you will have to land with the wind from behind , moreover AI planes will use proper runway when we will be landing from opposite direction, hehe. Good alternative but not good enough for the flight experience.
3. Perhaps as an fast fix you could add to PF3 pf3_display additional key shortcut,

Something like „W” what allows you to warp whole air plane with you and passengers onboard to the waypoint during the flight, but not exactly. Perhaps add option to clear all or individual waypoints from loaded flight plan during the flight or cheat PF3 that we have passed those waypoints which we will never flyover? In this method when wind will change direction, ATC will change preplanned STAR where we have waypoints loaded, and to avoid the mess, over OBDEJ wpt player could erase some STAR waypoints like here SC528 and ZOCEK to allow you to fly to other STAR wpt ORBOF, then control surly would handoff you to Approach and later Approach to Tower because last wpt in STAR to flyover would be OBDEJ. Method almost perfect, because it contain other logical problem. When the ATC has assigned us from planed OBDEJ1B to OBDEJ1A in normal situation we will get example information from ATC at last STAR WPT:
„Fair LN032 continue approach at (last planed STAR wpt) descent to xxxxft when established ILS localizer contact Tower at 119.50”
If we will delate waypoints during the flight and last will be OBDEJ for changed STAR, surly flying over OBDEJ, ATC will say to contact to app then appr to twy but PF3 will not have any information about other STAR, no waypoints, now altitudes, it may happen that PF3 will start vectoring us through strange ways which are far away of changed STAR of other rwy.
4. Best way to deal with it, but it maybe very much time consuming for you but providing the best experience for player, best feelings and less errors from program, would be rebuilding STAR procedures and waypoints handling.
In PF3 SID/STAR option we should have possibility to set not only the SID/STAR name, but waypoints for each STAR procedure too.

Then our flight plans should finish at the first waypoint of STAR.

Rest of waypoints containing informations about holdings in middle of STAR (not all holdings are at first waypoint of STAR) and altitudes would be added automaticity from PF3 STAR database, to the flight plan during the flight. according to the wind direction and possible STAR changes. Then program would have any necessary informations about waypoints, holdings and altitudes, would know what to do with you and how to behave and would be more elastic, real. The last ATC instructions of Approach would have proper waypoint name and altitude do descent just before handoff to TWR.

Proposition of PF3 waypoint handling of STAR: fix for wind, STAR, runway change

Briefing:
Destination STAR:
OBDEJ1A for rwy 13: wpt; OBDEJ, SC419, SC417, ORBOF
OBDEJ1B for rwy 31: wpt; OBDEJ, SC529, SC528, ZOCEK


Setting up SID/STARS in PF3:


Setting up Flight Plan in PF3:


FLIGHT:


Prons:
Player will always have proper informations from ATC about altitudes to descent and waypoints names. Last instruction from approach to handoff to tower will be much more accurate for example:
For OBDEJ1A „Fair LN032 continue approach at ORBOF descent to xxxxft when established ILS localizer contact Tower at 119.50”
For OBDEJ1B „Fair LN032 continue approach at ZOCEK descent to xxxxft when established ILS localizer contact Tower at 119.50”

Player may set in SID/STAR PF3 options, completely different altitudes for each STAR waypoints according to the STAR plates, PF3 having all STAR waypoints for each STAR procedure will be much more elastic and accurate even if the wind will change and of course STAR

dmarch, could you say if it is possible by you to rewrite code or do something to manage STARs in better way?
Above I have gave you example how it might work to provide full dynamic and elastic way of STAR waypoint managing in case of wind change before STAR.
Please consider it because PF3 is very good program but it is missing small details to be perfect. I wanted to use it and demonstrate power of PF3 on streems on twitch. Rather I would like to avoid situation where STAR will change and controller will give me wrong waypoint name to descent what belongs to other STAR, or happen something even more strange what I have described above.

Thank you for answer in advance.

Hi Mr Fox,

I find what works for me is to delete the waypoints in PF3 after OBDEJ when you first setup your flight. You will then be given the STAR and the runway back when you fly over OBDEJ. That way if there is a change of RW, it doesn’t matter as you will now be flying the new STAR and RW from the “common” first waypoint (OBDEJ).

Have a read through page 153 of the manual and see what you think.

Cheers,
N

Thank you for your answer but deleting the all STAR waypoints with exception of first, will fix the problem but unfortunately will provide you many other bad feelings and non-professional way of providing the surveillance by PF3 ATC. Let’s analyse first how PF3 is dealing with STAR when we have almost all STAR waypoints activate in the flight plan, PF3 ATC providing everuthing as it should be. Later I will compare it with only one STAR waypoint active in the flight plan. Let’s go.
1. Good approach with all active important STAR waypoints in the flight plan.


2. Approach with ONLY ONE STAR waypoint in the flight plan.


Comparison:
With all waypoints active in flight plan for STAR, PF3 provides STAR proc in much better way. First of all we got information with P1„…remain on this frequency I have traffic for you”, then ATC is monitoring our altitude on each waypoint what is very important during STEP DESCENT approach, so we can adjust altitude for each waypoint for STAR in the flight plans. With only one waypoint available for STAR we got information to descent 2500 at OBDEJ wpt, what is wrong because 10000 is planed and FAF PF3 options is set for 2500 and FAF is near ZOCEK not near OBDEJ, but without waypoints PF3 will not know what to do exactly!
Second very important thing is HOLDING management. Many of STAR procedures has holding waypoints somewhere in the middle of STAR procedure. How will you setup holding waypoint if it doesn’t exist in the flight plan, because you have planned only one waypoint, the first waypoint of STAR?
With all STAR waypoints available and preprogramed WPTs in flight plan, we have more control over the program and its behaves, we can adjust waypoints, move them, rename them, as I did on the first example to force PF3 to contact me to approach faster (it seems that penultimate wpt in STAR says to PF3 to contact you to approach and the last to tower).
By closing up to the real SC528 pos (in the planed flight plan with all STAR waypoints SC528 is renamed as ZOCEK by me, first image in this post) we got instructions from ATC, what you will not hear, with only one, only the first waypoint of STAR available in flight plan: „LN030 at Zulu Oscar Charlie Echo Kilo(ZOCEK) descent to 2500, cleared to final runway 31, contact tower 121,25 when established”- what is very professional, 2500 ft at ZOCEK is compatible with FAF on the STAR plate too. The decision to let you continue approach is given in good moment too (that is why I renamed SC528 to ZOCEK in flight plan for PF3, SC528 = ZOCEK is last waypoint in STAR in my PF3 flight plan).
This is example of very professional way to provide you STAR approach by ATC because the situation during flying 10 minutes in STAR may change right near ZOCEK. Here is the decision point to allow you continue approach and contact to TWR or say …continue present heading… due to traffic to separate/build bigger distance between planes on final and then allow you to fly to ZOCEK and descent to 2500 on it.

REASUMING:
Such a professional way to provide ATC, good feelings and surveillance of ATC is only available with all or almost all STAR waypoints active in the PF3 flight plan.
- It provides you proper HOLDINGS management for STARS with holdings WPTs somewhere in the middle of STAR procedure.
- It provides you surveillance of step descending during STAR.
- You decide which waypoint will be penultimate in the flight plan and where you will be handoff to approach.
- You decide where will be the last waypoint for STAR and what name it will have where approach will allow you to fly to final, will give you last instruction before handoff to TWR with CORRECT name of waypoint to heading and proper altitude to descent (“LN030 at Zulu Oscar Charlie Echo Kilo(ZOCEK) descent to 2500, cleared to final runway 31, contact tower 121,25 when established”-this you will not experience with only one waypoint of STAR in flight plan).
- Finally it could give the open way for the futures updates to give by ATC “shortcuts” on STARs procedures for example on random or when traffic is low: “LN030 fly direct to Zulu Oscar Charlie Echo Kilo(ZOCEK) descent to 4000” when we are for example 5NM after OBDEJ

SUGGESTION
Everything is working very well in PF3 when properly tweaked in flight plan in exception when wind will change, STAR and rwy, then PF3 does not have all necessary information’s about other STAR proc, other waypoints of different STAR.
I was thinking about it very long time and came to the conclusion that there will not be better fix/solution for PF3 to deal with wind and provide professional, perfect ATC surveillance during STAR, as I described on my first post: “Proposition of PF3 waypoint handling of STAR: fix for wind, STAR, runway change”.
In this idea player enters SID/STARS names like we have now in PF3 SID/STAR options, but also player enters to the PF3 database all information’s abut waypoints for each STARs approach, its coordinates, altitudes, information’s about holding and its names.
The flight plans which we are loading to the PF3 should contain only first waypoint for STAR or route should finish somewhere near first waypoint of STAR.
In case of wind, STAR, runway change, PF3 should dynamically import proper STAR with all waypoints to the flight plan during the flight.
This should provide for us proper, perfect, professional ATC surveillance in any time, in any case, in any wind conditions and changes, as PF3 offers us during approaching with all or almost all waypoints activated in STAR, tweaked and loaded to the PF3 - with no wind change.

I don't know how many changes this would require, but a solution might be for PF3 to use navigation database data e.g. commonly used from navigraph among others dedicated to competitive ATC applications. I think most of us use this and have a subscription.
Personally, I miss this in PF3 and also believe that it is currently the best ATC application - I use with P3D
If the program used such a database would have all the necessary data on STAR, SID, APP and to this full limits in the procedures such as altitude, speed etc. Setting everything manually is a bit cumbersome and personally I do not understand why PF3 has not implemented and does not use the database from Navigraph.

Best regards
Grzegorz Pawlik

Would the above use of Navigraph be possible to implement?