OnCourse Software :: Descent instruction come way too early

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Author:	martinlest [ Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Descent instruction come way too early

I set up flights with realistic plans, using as far as possible individual aircraft performance data (climb/descent rates). So I should be able to climb to my cruise altitude, remain there for whatever duration and then descend, with no problem.

But on shorter flights (say less than 200nm, very roughly), though my external maps show a relatively long section at cruise altitude, as do the flight instruments/FMC, PF3 ATC is telling me to descend before I even manage to reach cruise altitude. I have tried adding extra 'user' waypoints along the route in the PF3 plan, as it seems that descent instructions are triggered by reaching waypoints (?) but it isn't working.

How do I fix this please and not have ATC get me to descend when I am still climbing (according to their instructions of course)? Globally, if possible (as it is a 'global' occurrence), rather than having to edit every flight plan manually within the PF3 GUI.

I attach a log file, though it's just today's example (you'll note that, because I left the a/c 'unmanaged' to write this, I missed my 8000' level off.

)

Many thanks!

Martin

Author:	Dave March [ Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Descent instruction come way too early

Hi Martin,

Maybe the log yo supplied is not a very good example of the issue you're reporting, as I really can't see anything wrong with it. Your cruise altitude was set to 13,000 but on reaching your second waypoint (WP39) the next one (EBSAK) has an altitude set to 8,000, which is why you received instructions to descend to 8,000'

Unless I'm missing something?

Author:	martinlest [ Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Descent instruction come way too early

Hi.. I don't know whether you are missing anything Dave. The passing waypoint altitudes are calculated by the programme that creates the flight plans (Little Navmap).

I am mystified though by the fact you say that the altitude at EBSAK is 8000'. Not according to my flight plan:

I
3 version
1
7
1 FKKD 33.000000 4.012351 9.724827
2 DE 6402.153320 3.790767 10.138056
11 INODO 13000.000000 3.760000 10.816667
11 EBSAK 13000.000000 3.745261 11.136567
11 BOSKI 8458.960938 4.033333 11.523139
11 CI19 6253.828125 3.932405 11.590114
11 FI19 4636.937012 3.844980 11.574798
1 FKYS 2276.000000 3.717325 11.552436

The .pln format which PF3 accepts does not list altitudes at all for waypoints. This is the plan that PF3 is reading (it was probably in the log file??). Does this help explain? Nothing in the a/c or my flight plan shows that I should be at 8000' at EBSAK! WP39 only exists in the PF3 pln file by the way - I added it specifically to the PF3 plan as an 'extra' one to read, as I mentioned above, in the hope that PF3 would not descend too soon. But that clearly didn't work.

I can send another log next time if another example would help. Be really good to find a way to sort this

Thanks!

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<SimBase.Document Type="AceXML" version="1,0">
<Descr>AceXML Document</Descr>

<FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
<Title>FKKD to FKYS</Title>
<FPType>IFR</FPType>
<CruisingAlt>13000</CruisingAlt>
<DepartureID>FKKD</DepartureID>
<DepartureLLA>N4° 0' 42.69",E9° 42' 28.81",+000033.00</DepartureLLA>
<DestinationID>FKYS</DestinationID>
<DestinationLLA>N3° 43' 2.37",E11° 33' 8.77",+002276.00</DestinationLLA>
<Descr>FKKD, FKYS</Descr>
<DeparturePosition>12</DeparturePosition>
<DepartureName>Douala</DepartureName>
<DestinationName>Yaounde Nsimalen</DestinationName>
<AppVersion>
<AppVersionMajor>10</AppVersionMajor>
<AppVersionBuild>61472</AppVersionBuild>
</AppVersion>
<ATCWaypoint id="FKKD">
<ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N4° 0' 44.46",E9° 43' 29.38",+000033.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAOIdent>FKKD</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="DE">
<ATCWaypointType>NDB</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N3° 47' 26.76",E10° 8' 17.00",+000000.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAORegion>FK</ICAORegion>
<ICAOIdent>DE</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="WP39">
<ATCWaypointType>User</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N3° 46' 10.95",E10° 35' 15.40",+000000.00</WorldPosition>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="EBSAK">
<ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N3° 44' 42.94",E11° 8' 11.64",+000000.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAORegion>FK</ICAORegion>
<ICAOIdent>EBSAK</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="FKYS">
<ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N3° 43' 2.37",E11° 33' 8.77",+002276.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAOIdent>FKYS</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
</FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
</SimBase.Document>

Author:	Dave March [ Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Descent instruction come way too early

This is the flight plan you loaded into PF3

<FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
<Title>FKKD to FKYS</Title>
<FPType>IFR</FPType>
<CruisingAlt>13000</CruisingAlt>
<DepartureID>FKKD</DepartureID>
<DepartureLLA>N4° 0' 42.69",E9° 42' 28.81",+000033.00</DepartureLLA>
<DestinationID>FKYS</DestinationID>
<DestinationLLA>N3° 43' 2.37",E11° 33' 8.77",+002276.00</DestinationLLA>
<Descr>FKKD, FKYS</Descr>
<DeparturePosition>12</DeparturePosition>
<DepartureName>Douala</DepartureName>
<DestinationName>Yaounde Nsimalen</DestinationName>
<AppVersion>
<AppVersionMajor>10</AppVersionMajor>
<AppVersionBuild>61472</AppVersionBuild>
</AppVersion>
<ATCWaypoint id="FKKD">
<ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N4° 0' 44.46",E9° 43' 29.38",+000033.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAOIdent>FKKD</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="DE">
<ATCWaypointType>NDB</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N3° 47' 26.76",E10° 8' 17.00",+000000.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAORegion>FK</ICAORegion>
<ICAOIdent>DE</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="WP39">
<ATCWaypointType>User</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N3° 46' 10.95",E10° 35' 15.40",+000000.00</WorldPosition>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="EBSAK">
<ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N3° 44' 42.94",E11° 8' 11.64",+000000.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAORegion>FK</ICAORegion>
<ICAOIdent>EBSAK</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="FKYS">
<ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N3° 43' 2.37",E11° 33' 8.77",+002276.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAOIdent>FKYS</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
</FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
</SimBase.Document>

----------------------------------------
Selected Flight Plan
----------------------------------------

Adjusted data...

XML Flight Plan successfully adjusted for PF3.

------------------
Processed
------------------
[flightplan]
AppVersion=10.61472
title=FKKD to FKYS
description=FKKD, FKYS
type=IFR
routetype=0
cruising_altitude=13000
departure_id=FKKD, N4* 0.42',E9* 42.28',+000033.00
departure_position=12
destination_id=FKYS, N3* 43.02',E11* 33.08',+002276.00
departure_name=Douala
destination_name=Yaounde Nsimalen
waypoint.0=FKKD, A, N4* 0.44',E9* 43.29',+000033.00
waypoint.1=DE, N, N3* 47.26',E10* 8.17',+000000.00
waypoint.2=WP39, I, N3* 46.10',E10* 35.15',+000000.00
waypoint.3=EBSAK, I, N3* 44.42',E11* 8.11',+000000.00
waypoint.4=FKYS, A, N3* 43.02',E11* 33.08',+002276.00

All PF3 does is to work out a flight profile, given your intended cruise altitude. If you click on the 'Adjust altitudes' after loading a flight plan you can see what the altitudes are for each waypoint and adjust them as necessry

Author:	martinlest [ Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Descent instruction come way too early

Hi Dave. The pln format I posted is produced by Little Navmap from the original plan in X-Plane's fms format - there, in the fms file (used for a/c FMC etc.), the waypoint is 13,000' not 8,000'. Seems the pln format it produces is not fully compatible with PF3 then ?? Using your version should solve the descent issue I guess. I can test it of course, at some stage soon...

How exactly did you convert it to your version from mine? There are many features in PF3 I haven't used for three years now, since going over to X-Plane - I may well have known at one stage. I don't recall now. I wonder how I can generate that format directly, without converting from the format I uploaded....

Thank you.

EDIT: Just loaded your format plan into PF3 - the 'Adjust Altitude' page still shows the EBSAK waypoint at 8000', so I assume you mean I'd have to manually adjust every flight plan? Bit confused now - sorry!

Here's the original plan, made by Little Navmap:

I
3 version
1
5
1 FKKD 33.000000 4.012351 9.724827
2 DE 6402.153320 3.790767 10.138056
11 INODO 13000.000000 3.760000 10.816667
11 EBSAK 13000.000000 3.745261 11.136567
11 BOSKI 8050.683105 4.033333 11.523139
1 FKYS 2276.000000 3.717325 11.552436

Author:	Dave March [ Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Descent instruction come way too early

Most simulator flight planners only give your cruise altitude, which you enter when creating the plan. PF3 simply uses that and creates a flight profile, calculated by using distance to your destination, cruise altitude and aircraft/user profile rate of descent.

Usually it's best to leave it 'as is' but there are times, depending on the type of approach and surrounding topology, to make adjustments for waypoint altitudes, which you can do very easily in PF3. Simply click on the 'Adjust altitudes' button on the main screen after loading your flight plan. You can even configure PF3 to display this automatically each time you load a flight plan from the 'Advanced' settings page.

Pf3 still uses the old pln (FS9) format internally but you can load XML flight plans like the one you show used by Xplane, FSX, P3D and even the new MSFS 2020.

Hope that helps.

Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk

Author:	martinlest [ Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Descent instruction come way too early

Ok, thanks Dave. As this is a fairly regular occurrence, probably a good idea to set the 'Adjust Altitude' window to come up automatically (I had forgotten you could do that) and check/change altitudes before connecting PF3 to the sim.

M.

Author:	martinlest [ Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Descent instruction come way too early

One little thing I notice - now I have set the Adjust Altitudes window to open automatically, when you have saved the adjustments and are then, next time you open the same flight plan, presented with the window 'A SID/STAR/Altitude Adjustment/Holds file has been found.... Do you want to use it...?' and click 'Yes', the FP Adjustments window opens up anyway.

Any chance you could modify PF3 (I don't know if an update is in the offing - long time since there was one: perhaps PF3 is now 'perfect' and needs no further updates.

) so that the FP Adjustments window does not open if you click 'Yes' in the Adjustments found window? (You have to save the same setting again to exit the window). If you simply want to keep the existing adjustments, why would you need that page to open up?

Thanks again

Author:	Dave March [ Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Descent instruction come way too early

As a good pilot you would surely want to check the flight plan to ensure it is what you expect?

As for updates we are currently working on PF3 as I write

Author:	martinlest [ Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Descent instruction come way too early

Quote:
As a good pilot you would surely want to check the flight plan to ensure it is what you expect?

Far be it from me to maintain that I am a good pilot!

No, once a flight plan is written, I use the same one repeatedly. If I want a different route between the same airports, I write a different plan, differently named. Personally, I would prefer that once an altitude adjustment is set and saved, the FP Adjustment page is not automatically called up by that dialogue box. But it is, as I said, just a small thing of course.

Look forward to seeing what's in the next update!

All the best...

M.

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