OnCourse Software
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/

Line up and wait
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2561		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  johnhinson [ Thu May 04, 2017 5:01 am ]
Post subject:  Line up and wait
Should PF3 give "line up and wait" (or "position and hold", as was) instructions?

I was held for take off but incorrectly given clearance as soon as the incoming aircraft had touched the runway. (Iwas also given preference over another waiting aircraft). I pulled onto the runway smartly as another incoming aircraft had called in for landing. I could see the first ahead while I did take-off checks and also heard it report clear of the runway so PF3 obviously knew exactly where it was. The second arrival had to go around (pilot's decision, not the controller's, if I remember rightly) so I should really have been held for that too. My setting for "Hold for jets on final" is 6 miles (the default) but I think it was a lot closer than that.

Seems PF3 made a bit of a mess of this, not at all its normal disciplined way. Appropriate log (hopefully) attached.

John
Author:  vololiberista [ Thu May 04, 2017 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Line up and wait
johnhinson wrote: *  Thu May 04, 2017 5:01 am
Should PF3 give "line up and wait" (or "position and hold", as was) instructions?

I was held for take off but incorrectly given clearance as soon as the incoming aircraft had touched the runway. (Iwas also given preference over another waiting aircraft). I pulled onto the runway smartly as another incoming aircraft had called in for landing. I could see the first ahead while I did take-off checks and also heard it report clear of the runway so PF3 obviously knew exactly where it was. The second arrival had to go around (pilot's decision, not the controller's, if I remember rightly) so I should really have been held for that too. My setting for "Hold for jets on final" is 6 miles (the default) but I think it was a lot closer than that.

Seems PF3 made a bit of a mess of this, not at all its normal disciplined way. Appropriate log (hopefully) attached.

John
PF3 can suffer from timing issues at very busy airports. Principally because the default ATC is very slick when controlling the AI. Dave would be able to determine if that's your issue. It certainly is better than it was in PFE and early PF3. My habit is to be a bit slow off the mark when receiving a "Line-up and wait." I also have "hold for jets on final" set at 6nm. I always make sure that if the incoming is Ryanair that he is forced to go-around! Or that if he is waiting to enter the runway then I keep him waiting! The trick is really not to be as slick as the default ATC.
Author:  Dave March [ Thu May 04, 2017 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Line up and wait
Quote:
Should PF3 give "line up and wait
Not necessarily
Quote:
I was also given preference over another waiting aircraft
Do you mean they were in front of you on the taxiway?
Quote:
I pulled onto the runway smartly as another incoming aircraft had called in for landing. I could see the first ahead while I did take-off checks
I think your takeoff checks should be completed before you enter the runway
Quote:
and also heard it report clear of the runway so PF3 obviously knew exactly where it was
PF3 doesn't 'track' AI aircraft and it simply reports events after they occur
Quote:
The second arrival had to go around (pilot's decision, not the controller's
Again you shouldn't have been hanging around on an active runway doing takeoffchecks

AI interaction in PF3 is by no means perfect but it works well 99.9% of the time. At some time in the future I will revisit AI monitoring and maybe, just maybe I might be able to improve some areas. Unfortunately it's very difficult to see exactly what AI traffic was doing just by using the log file you provided unless your debug level is set to maximum, which of course will then generate very large files. But obviously if you do get a recurring issue then by all means recreate it with your debug level set to max and let us have the log.
Author:  johnhinson [ Thu May 04, 2017 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Line up and wait
Thanks for your reply, but I would ask/comment a little more:
dmarch wrote: *  Thu May 04, 2017 10:41 am
Quote:
Should PF3 give "line up and wait
Not necessarily
Why not, if there is an aircraft on the runway? What should it do?

If you are saying PF3 is technically unable to (for whatever reason), then I accept that.
dmarch wrote: *  Thu May 04, 2017 10:41 am
Quote:
I was also given preference over another waiting aircraft
Do you mean they were in front of you on the taxiway?
No, it was on a parallel taxiway to the one I was directed to.
dmarch wrote: *  Thu May 04, 2017 10:41 am
Quote:
I pulled onto the runway smartly as another incoming aircraft had called in for landing. I could see the first ahead while I did take-off checks
I think your takeoff checks should be completed before you enter the runway
Maybe, but it isn't relevant here. If I had, I wouldn't have taken off any quicker owing to the plane on the runway.
dmarch wrote: *  Thu May 04, 2017 10:41 am
Quote:
The second arrival had to go around (pilot's decision, not the controller's
Again you shouldn't have been hanging around on an active runway doing takeoffchecks
See above. Either method would take the same length of time.
dmarch wrote: *  Thu May 04, 2017 10:41 am
AI interaction in PF3 is by no means perfect but it works well 99.9% of the time. At some time in the future I will revisit AI monitoring and maybe, just maybe I might be able to improve some areas. Unfortunately it's very difficult to see exactly what AI traffic was doing just by using the log file you provided unless your debug level is set to maximum, which of course will then generate very large files. But obviously if you do get a recurring issue then by all means recreate it with your debug level set to max and let us have the log.
Will do, thanks.

John
Author:  johnhinson [ Sat May 27, 2017 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Line up and wait
Just to update on this, I encountered a similar situation today and was correctly told to line up and wait, and subsequently got clearance when the landing aircraft left the runway.

So I am not sure why that didn't happen on the previous occasion but we'll put it down to the controller having a bad day.

John
Author:  Dave March [ Sat May 27, 2017 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Line up and wait
Thank you for the feedback
Author:  massimo390 [ Sun May 28, 2017 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Line up and wait
dmarch wrote: *  Thu May 04, 2017 10:41 am
Quote:
Should PF3 give "line up and wait
Not necessarily
Quote:
I was also given preference over another waiting aircraft
Do you mean they were in front of you on the taxiway?
Quote:
I pulled onto the runway smartly as another incoming aircraft had called in for landing. I could see the first ahead while I did take-off checks
I think your takeoff checks should be completed before you enter the runway

Hi Dave,

In the A320 there is a "long" procedure and a short checklist after the take off clearance. Of course it is shared by the two pilots, not always the case in our personal simulators .. it takes only a few seconds to perform usually while you line up for take off.

Rgrds,

Massimo

Quote:
and also heard it report clear of the runway so PF3 obviously knew exactly where it was
PF3 doesn't 'track' AI aircraft and it simply reports events after they occur
Quote:
The second arrival had to go around (pilot's decision, not the controller's
Again you shouldn't have been hanging around on an active runway doing takeoffchecks

AI interaction in PF3 is by no means perfect but it works well 99.9% of the time. At some time in the future I will revisit AI monitoring and maybe, just maybe I might be able to improve some areas. Unfortunately it's very difficult to see exactly what AI traffic was doing just by using the log file you provided unless your debug level is set to maximum, which of course will then generate very large files. But obviously if you do get a recurring issue then by all means recreate it with your debug level set to max and let us have the log.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC+01:00
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited