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terrain awareness plans
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Author:  markvii [ Mon May 01, 2017 4:48 am ]
Post subject:  terrain awareness plans
Other atc programs are "terrain aware" (pro/atc-x,pilot2atc and now also voxatc beta) so I was wondering if there are plans for pf3 to be made terrain aware as well ?

Terrain and sid/stars (navigraph and all that) awareness would really be the icing on the cake imo.

Thnx
Author:  Dave March [ Mon May 01, 2017 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: terrain awareness plans
Quote:
Other atc programs are "terrain aware" (pro/atc-x,pilot2atc and now also voxatc beta)
This is not correct! As far as I know there are no other ATC programs that are 'terrain aware'. The only way they could be loosely considered to be such is by using published procedures, which of course you can do with PF3.
Author:  markvii [ Mon May 01, 2017 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: terrain awareness plans
dmarch wrote: *  Mon May 01, 2017 10:40 am
Quote:
Other atc programs are "terrain aware" (pro/atc-x,pilot2atc and now also voxatc beta)
This is not correct! As far as I know there are no other ATC programs that are 'terrain aware'. The only way they could be loosely considered to be such is by using published procedures, which of course you can do with PF3.

It appears it is correct and so far for pilot2atc and proatcx it works..Can't say it works for voxatc beta because I didn't try it but the developer says it is terrain aware. (http://voxatc.com/Home.aspx/Beta.- check the line where it says version 7.3). For pilot2atc you have an option under p2a setup called "calculate safe enroute altitudes". Pro-atc/X has an option called "download waypoint elevation data". You have to be online for this option to be working of course.-
Author:  vololiberista [ Mon May 01, 2017 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: terrain awareness plans
markvii wrote: *  Mon May 01, 2017 4:48 am
Other atc programs are "terrain aware" (pro/atc-x,pilot2atc and now also voxatc beta) so I was wondering if there are plans for pf3 to be made terrain aware as well ?

Terrain and sid/stars (navigraph and all that) awareness would really be the icing on the cake imo.

Thnx
Quote:
.Can't say it works for voxatc beta because I didn't try it but the developer says it is terrain aware. (http://voxatc.com/Home.aspx/Beta.- check the line where it says version 7.3).
This seems to be contested as far as I have seen. Lets just say that the Voxatc beta is not run on the same terms as PF3!!

Think of it this way. Real ATC know of the surrounding terrain (at least one hopes they do!). There are only two ways they can see you, visually or by radar. If visually then there is a not unreasonable chance that you too can see the terrain. The only other way they can see you is with radar. Radar as you may already know is line of sight. It cannot see around corners, through mountains etc. Therefore ATC can only vector you if you show up on their radar. That means that either you are above the local terrain or following a published procedure that allows them to have line of sight. This notion that ATC can somehow vector you around mountains when you are below their peaks is misplaced. All approach charts will have MSA minimum safe altitude marked on them. Sometimes the numbers are displayed as a pie chart and sometimes you will see large numbers placed over some of the chart areas. These numbers are there for your benefit not ATC's. They are usually QNH. All you have to do is not to descend below the MSA. One good way of ensuring that PF3 doesn't descend you below the MSA is to set the FAF altitude for your destination field in the bottom right of the SID/STAR page. In most cases the FAF altitude will be above the chart MSA but if not make it so in PF3.
Bear in mind that you the pilot are responsible for not scratching the paint. Not ATC!

All you have to do is look at the approach charts, find the lowest MSA, then in PF3 enter the FAF altitude for that airfield ensuring that it is not lower than the lowest published MSA. I would say that's only a few seconds worth of your time and PF3 will remember for the next time you fly there.

Where you have to fly a procedure that goes around a mountain say then you are on your own as you are in real life.
Author:  johnhinson [ Mon May 01, 2017 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: terrain awareness plans
markvii wrote: *  Mon May 01, 2017 12:16 pm
It appears it is correct and so far for pilot2atc and proatcx it works..Can't say it works for voxatc beta because I didn't try it but the developer says it is terrain aware. (http://voxatc.com/Home.aspx/Beta.- check the line where it says version 7.3). For pilot2atc you have an option under p2a setup called "calculate safe enroute altitudes". Pro-atc/X has an option called "download waypoint elevation data". You have to be online for this option to be working of course.-
All three appear to have "moving maps" and if terrain is shown on them they may extract the data from there. If so, it will not necessarily match the terrain of Flight Simulator. I note none work with FS9 so this luddite cannot check anything out with a trial version.

I think there must be a way to extract terrain levels from FS as the FSNavigator (FS9) map seems to show them (and adjust them if new terrain is installed) but the markers are too sparse to allow scary flights up valleys. So maybe it can be done. Maybe somebody with FSTramp (FSnavigator's bigger and smarter brother for FSX) might comment on what is shown there?

John
Author:  RALF9636 [ Mon May 01, 2017 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: terrain awareness plans
The Aerosoft Airbus has a Terrain Display overlayed on the Navigational Display. That works perfectly and apparently reads the elevation out of the sim.

So it definitely should be possible.

Nevertheless for the reasons given by Vololiberista I don't think it would be worth the effort to implement that into PF3. Remember that knowing the terrain would not be enough. The whole vectoring calculations would have to be redone because PF3 would have to find reasonable vectors around the terrain. Just imagine vectoring into LOWI. How would a universal algorithm ever be capable to do that reasonably? Seems too complex to me.
And eventually that is what charts and standard procedures are there for - not ATC.

PF3 already supports that not only by the option to set the FAF altitude but also by the STAR option and the option to request a clearance to final at pilot's discretion. I recommend to always activate the STAR option when flying to an airport in mountaineous terrain and then follow the charts.
Author:  vololiberista [ Mon May 01, 2017 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: terrain awareness plans
johnhinson wrote: *  Mon May 01, 2017 1:44 pm
markvii wrote: *  Mon May 01, 2017 12:16 pm
It appears it is correct and so far for pilot2atc and proatcx it works..Can't say it works for voxatc beta because I didn't try it but the developer says it is terrain aware. (http://voxatc.com/Home.aspx/Beta.- check the line where it says version 7.3). For pilot2atc you have an option under p2a setup called "calculate safe enroute altitudes". Pro-atc/X has an option called "download waypoint elevation data". You have to be online for this option to be working of course.-
All three appear to have "moving maps" and if terrain is shown on them they may extract the data from there. If so, it will not necessarily match the terrain of Flight Simulator. I note none work with FS9 so this luddite cannot check anything out with a trial version.

I think there must be a way to extract terrain levels from FS as the FSNavigator (FS9) map seems to show them (and adjust them if new terrain is installed) but the markers are too sparse to allow scary flights up valleys. So maybe it can be done. Maybe somebody with FSTramp (FSnavigator's bigger and smarter brother for FSX) might comment on what is shown there?

John
Moving maps like those in the HS Trident are/were a navigational aid for the pilots. Not ATC. The information on those maps is still presented and published in the form of charts. Which in real life, the possession of is a mandatory requirement for every Commander. As I said ATC cannot possibly vector you unseen behind and around mountains. So for computer programme to do that is unrealistic. It is your responsibility and yours alone to avoid terrain. So flightplanning into an airport with high terrain has to be done with care. All it requires is to read the charts and look for the MSA on your proposed route and ensure that the airfield FAF altitude input into PF3 is of a sufficiently high altitude. It really is not that difficult. It's even real world practice too!
Author:  vololiberista [ Mon May 01, 2017 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: terrain awareness plans
RALF9636 wrote: *  Mon May 01, 2017 2:46 pm
Just imagine vectoring into LOWI.
They wouldn't dare to Ralph! The procedure for LOWI is to fly the STARs which have altitude constraints e.g. BRENO 2A FL140 to be at FL120 at RTT (strangely enough the STAR altitude constraints are there for terrain reasons). And then following the procedural turn at RTT (you do that as it is a published hold even if you are not held) turn to 210deg and descend to 9,500 QNH to capture the localiser for rwy 26. PF3 will correctly descend you whilst in the holding pattern too. 9,500 QNH is the FAF for LOWI so no moving maps needed there at all! All one needs to do in PF3 is ensure that the STAR has the altitude limitations and that the FAF altitude is correct. LOWI ATC would not dream of vectoring you. It's not necessary and would be quite dangerous actually especially if the cloud base was low say 5,000ft.
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Author:  voju24 [ Mon May 01, 2017 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: terrain awareness plans
It seems, that Pilot2atc indeed does have terrain awareness. But I don't know how good it is as the developer of it says "Vectoring does try to avoid terrain.  IF you are exactly on course for the vector, you should be OK, but as always, fly with one eye out the window and on any other situational awareness options you have to be safe.  The controller is on the ground and will not be in the crash if it occurs." Source (Feb 2017) https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/5041 ... tion-star/

I personally also think like Ralph, that PF3's current facilities are good enough for satisfying flights into difficult terrain. In order to get the vectoring usable for proper mountainous terrain would be a huge effort.
For me PF3's development effort doesn't need to be spent on this. There are other areas where I see more potential for improvement (For instance VFR flights/VFR airspace handling ;) )

Best,

David
Author:  Andayle [ Mon May 01, 2017 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: terrain awareness plans
Hi vololiberista

I see in your screenshot that you have the actual STAR waypoints as part of the flight plan, this makes sense as you can then assign altitudes, but what happens if the wind changes during flight and you get assigned a different runway than originally planned? Some airports use a completely different set of STARS for different runways.
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