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Oceanic Ops
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2534
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Author:  dtsakiris [ Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Oceanic Ops

Hello everyone,

on my last flight, EFOU - KIAD, I had a few hiccups with PF3, all of them having to do with oceanic operations. On this flight, I manually defined the waypoint NORVA as the entry point into oceanic airspace, and PRAWN as the exit.

1. During oceanic ops, reports were made at or mentioning the waypoint "XXX", which isn't a real waypoint, but something PF3 adds, as far as I recall.

2. I'm not sure about this, as I wasn't sitting in front of the computer for the whole flight, but I think some position reports were made twice, or at least with very little time in between.

3. While in oceanic airspace, I couldn't ask for flight level changes, or the weather (ATIS) for KIAD. In my understanding, real pilots are able to do both.

4. At the exit point PRAWN, PF3 fell into a loop. If I remember correctly, my VC, who was handling ATC since receiving taxi instructions, got the instruction to contact Gander Center on 132.2. He confirmed, then - on the right frequency 132.2 - went ahead and contacted Gander Oceanic, who confirmed with SelCal and all, then immediately told us to contact Gander Center again, which is where the loop began. After 5 - 10 times of going back and forth, I took over ATC and tried a few things. What seems to have broken the loop is me issuing a position report on 132.2 (hotkey 9), and then making contact (0). After that, ATC seemed to be normal again, and my FO Travis resumed his ATC duties.

5. The flight was planned by SimBrief for FL320 initially. I changed the altitude of certain STAR waypoints in PF3, as well as the waypoints before and after, to reflect the constraints of the according charts (HYPER7), and to ensure a stable descent.

During the flight, when reaching 320, the FMC recommended 360, so I asked for and received that flight level (that was before the entry point NORVA). After a few hours, I wanted to step climb to 380 or 400, but PF3 didn't let me - see point 3 above. About around leaving oceanic airspace, my VC then started to amend his ATC calls with "out of FL360 for FL320".

Nearing Dulles there were no descent orders from ATC. I also couldn't manually ask for them (Ctrl+Shft+L+8), there was no reaction from ATC. So I started to descend (albeit way too late and high for the constraints), which triggered ATC, who asked me to remain at 360. I received no further instructions like vectors or speeds, and I also couldn't ask for a runway, so we manually reported to Dulles Tower as soon as we were established on 01R, and from there on PF3 was almost back to normal.

I have attached the logs. Again, I would like to request a second, non-encrypted set of logs, so I can verify or debunk the impressions I got during the flight, so as to bother you only with the real issues.

Author:  ThomasAH [ Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oceanic Ops

dtsakiris wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:53 am
1. During oceanic ops, reports were made at or mentioning the waypoint "XXX", which isn't a real waypoint, but something PF3 adds, as far as I recall.
Handling of XXX waypoints has been fixed in a recent beta (2-3 weeks ago).
dtsakiris wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:53 am
2. I'm not sure about this, as I wasn't sitting in front of the computer for the whole flight, but I think some position reports were made twice, or at least with very little time in between.
This happens at each waypoint and you had two only 14NM apart. With real OP they are where you cross meridians, so they are farther apart.
dtsakiris wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:53 am
3. While in oceanic airspace, I couldn't ask for flight level changes, or the weather (ATIS) for KIAD. In my understanding, real pilots are able to do both.
Regular ATIS frequencies would not work, because of the distances involved.
I think (but haven't verified) aircraft can receive them in text form via their FMC (similar to the ACARS ATIS in PF3), but I don't think this is implemented in PF3.

I see the hotkey for requesting a lower altitude in the logs, but it seems PF3 ignored that. I filed a bug report for that in the beta forum.
dtsakiris wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:53 am
4. At the exit point PRAWN, PF3 fell into a loop. If I remember correctly, my VC, who was handling ATC since receiving taxi instructions, got the instruction to contact Gander Center on 132.2. He confirmed, then - on the right frequency 132.2 - went ahead and contacted Gander Oceanic, who confirmed with SelCal and all, then immediately told us to contact Gander Center again, which is where the loop began. After 5 - 10 times of going back and forth, I took over ATC and tried a few things. What seems to have broken the loop is me issuing a position report on 132.2 (hotkey 9), and then making contact (0). After that, ATC seemed to be normal again, and my FO Travis resumed his ATC duties.
No idea about that. I would suggest reporting it again if it happens when using the next release. I don't have a release date, but Dave already has many fixes and new things implemented since 3.3.0 :)
dtsakiris wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:53 am
5. The flight was planned by SimBrief for FL320 initially. I changed the altitude of certain STAR waypoints in PF3, as well as the waypoints before and after, to reflect the constraints of the according charts (HYPER7), and to ensure a stable descent.

During the flight, when reaching 320, the FMC recommended 360, so I asked for and received that flight level (that was before the entry point NORVA). After a few hours, I wanted to step climb to 380 or 400, but PF3 didn't let me - see point 3 above. About around leaving oceanic airspace, my VC then started to amend his ATC calls with "out of FL360 for FL320".
FL320 was your cruising alt before requesting a higher one. It seems that this wasn't communicated across the pond :)
I filed a bug report for this, too.
dtsakiris wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:53 am
Nearing Dulles there were no descent orders from ATC. I also couldn't manually ask for them (Ctrl+Shft+L+8), there was no reaction from ATC. So I started to descend (albeit way too late and high for the constraints), which triggered ATC, who asked me to remain at 360. I received no further instructions like vectors or speeds, and I also couldn't ask for a runway, so we manually reported to Dulles Tower as soon as we were established on 01R, and from there on PF3 was almost back to normal.
This could be a followup problem. I would recommend trying this again when the previous problem has been fixed.

Until then it is probably better to stick to the cruising altitude from the flight plan.
dtsakiris wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:53 am
I have attached the logs. Again, I would like to request a second, non-encrypted set of logs, so I can verify or debunk the impressions I got during the flight, so as to bother you only with the real issues.
Your impressions were correct, thank you for reporting them in such detail.
I have attached the decrypted debug log, so you can take a look, too. (Dave, please tell me if I should not do this in the future, but I think this detailed bug report earned him an exception)

Author:  dtsakiris [ Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oceanic Ops

ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm
Handling of XXX waypoints has been fixed in a recent beta (2-3 weeks ago).
Roger that!
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm
This happens at each waypoint and you had two only 14NM apart. With real OP they are where you cross meridians, so they are farther apart.
Which waypoints in the oceanic portion were only 14 NM apart?
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm
Regular ATIS frequencies would not work, because of the distances involved.
I think (but haven't verified) aircraft can receive them in text form via their FMC (similar to the ACARS ATIS in PF3), but I don't think this is implemented in PF3.
Right, it should be able via ACARS and SatCom or so. So that would be a feature request, then!
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm
I see the hotkey for requesting a lower altitude in the logs, but it seems PF3 ignored that. I filed a bug report for that in the beta forum.
Thanks!
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm
No idea about that. I would suggest reporting it again if it happens when using the next release. I don't have a release date, but Dave already has many fixes and new things implemented since 3.3.0 :)
Thanks again!
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm
FL320 was your cruising alt before requesting a higher one. It seems that this wasn't communicated across the pond :)
I filed a bug report for this, too.
...and again!
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm
This could be a followup problem. I would recommend trying this again when the previous problem has been fixed.

Until then it is probably better to stick to the cruising altitude from the flight plan.
Yes, I agree, probably a follow-up.
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm
I have attached the decrypted debug log, so you can take a look, too.
Thank you! Edit: Can't see the attachment :)

Author:  ThomasAH [ Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oceanic Ops

Oops, here is the correct log.

Author:  ThomasAH [ Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oceanic Ops

dtsakiris wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:00 pm
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:12 pm
This happens at each waypoint and you had two only 14NM apart. With real OP they are where you cross meridians, so they are farther apart.
Which waypoints in the oceanic portion were only 14 NM apart?
XXX and 6730N ... so that won't be a problem in the future :)

Author:  dtsakiris [ Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oceanic Ops

ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:01 pm
Oops, here is the correct log.
Thanks!
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:06 pm
XXX and 6730N ... so that won't be a problem in the future :)
PF3 shows 42 NM on my system. But yes, that should be no problem soon! ;)

Author:  ThomasAH [ Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oceanic Ops

dtsakiris wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:27 pm
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:06 pm
XXX and 6730N ... so that won't be a problem in the future :)
PF3 shows 42 NM on my system. But yes, that should be no problem soon! ;)
To be more precise: After the talking about the previous position report was done, the next waypoint was only 14NM away :)

Author:  dtsakiris [ Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oceanic Ops

ThomasAH wrote: *  Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:32 pm
To be more precise: After the talking about the previous position report was done, the next waypoint was only 14NM away :)
Ah, okay :mrgreen:

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