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Untowered airports
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2461		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  johnhinson [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Untowered airports
Good day! I am a newbie to PF3 although not totally so as I have previously dabbled with PFE and also regularly use FDC. I wasn't aware PFE had been superseded by PF3 so am a bit behind the times. I hold my hands up for ceasing use of PFE as I didn't find it particularly reliable for my needs but PF3 seems a lot more solid on that front so I have paid my dues and am giving it a whirl. Undoubtedly I will have a few questions but here is my first:

I have the same issue in PF3 that I had with PFE at untowered airports. It isn't the software (at least, I doubt it) but my personal lack of knowledge that is the problem. And the manual doesn't seem to help me.

What is the "order of ceremonies" for taking off and landing at untowered airports. At this point in time I am using CP Mode 2 which should do all the work for me, but as I have no idea when (for instance) you would open an IFR flight plan, I have no idea what keys to press and when!

Could somebody kindly guide me through the procedure from loading one's aircraft in FS2004 and with PF3 connected? It would be most appreciated.

Best regards,

John
Author:  ThomasAH [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Untowered airports
Hi John!
johnhinson wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:16 am
What is the "order of ceremonies" for taking off and landing at untowered airports. At this point in time I am using CP Mode 2 which should do all the work for me, but as I have no idea when (for instance) you would open an IFR flight plan, I have no idea what keys to press and when!
OK, let me try to do it from memory, please confirm if that works:

Taking off from an untowered airport:
1. contact FSS (with PF3 3.2.0 this defaults to 122.0 if the airport does not have one configured, this will change to 122.2 with the next release to avoid conflicts with Active Sky), using the hotkey 0.
2. after a pause they will say "Go ahead", press 0 again to request an IFR clearance
3. with hotkey 7 you can ask for airport advisories (including altimeter setting), but they will refer you to the Unicom or Multicom frequency (which your VCP mode 2 will automatically dial), or just manually tune to Unicom or Multicom.
4. press hotkey 6 before entering the runway (after checking for other aircraft, they do not talk yet at uncontrolled airports in PF3, but this is on the wishlist)
5. press hotkey 8 to announce departing the area
6. manually tune to Departure frequency (I don't remember if there is a way to let your VCP do this), check in using hotkey 0, and from here on proceed as usual

Alternatively:
1. Just take off from the airport, pretending you own :)
2. manually tune to Departure frequency and use hotkey 0 to check in.


Landings:
1. At some point Approach will tell you to squawk 1200 and contact unicom or multicom. If it does not automatically do it, use hotkey 8 to report airport in sight.
2. Use hotkey 0 to announce your presence to other aircraft
3. Use hotkey 2 to announce entering the pattern at downwind
4. Use hotkey 3 to announce turning base
5. Use hotkey 4 to announce turning final
6. Land
7. Use hotkey 5 when clear of the runway
(so basically 0 to check in, 2-3-4-5 in order for the following steps)

If you do a straight-in landing (ILS or otherwise) you can skip hotkeys 2 and 3

P.S.: If your airport does not have Unicom or Multicom frequencies, you can manually add them in Options #2.
Author:  dtsakiris [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Untowered airports
Very interesting, I was just about to open a similar thread. So, not to hijack anything, but I have two related questions:
ThomasAH wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:30 am
2. after a pause they will say "Go ahead", press 0 again to request an IFR clearance
How long is that pause normally?
ThomasAH wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:30 am
1. At some point Approach will tell you to squawk 1200
Regarding this, maybe you could add to the wish list that ATC gives the poor pilots operating without FOs more time to set the transponder. Often ATC nags also immediately after I read back his instructions ;)
Author:  ThomasAH [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Untowered airports
dtsakiris wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:41 am
ThomasAH wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:30 am
2. after a pause they will say "Go ahead", press 0 again to request an IFR clearance
How long is that pause normally?
Not sure ... long ... maybe 30 seconds?
dtsakiris wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:41 am
ThomasAH wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:30 am
1. At some point Approach will tell you to squawk 1200
Regarding this, maybe you could add to the wish list that ATC gives the poor pilots operating without FOs more time to set the transponder. Often ATC nags also immediately after I read back his instructions ;)
Usually I fly with VCP mode 2, but I don't remember seeing this when using VCP mode 0. Can you open a new thread for this and attach a zipped log when it happens? Please include an estimate of how short this "immediately after" was, so we can compare it to what PF3 thinks.
By the way, some aircraft have a "VFR" button on the transponder to set squawk 1200 :)
Author:  vololiberista [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Untowered airports
Generally speaking the crew would set the transponder code "after" the readback. Sometimes within seconds but certainly within one minute after "readback correct". So PF3 does that about right. ATC probsbly wouldn't quibble until you call them back for push and/or start.
Author:  johnhinson [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Untowered airports
ThomasAH wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:30 am
OK, let me try to do it from memory, please confirm if that works:
[snip]
Thanks, Thomas, I will try that and report back, but it might not be for a few days.

When I tried it, I did indeed follow your "alternatively" and it did work for me but I felt that it wasn't quite as intended. So next time I will try and do the full monty.

To dtsakiris - in CP Mode 2 I am pretty sure the retune of the transponder is done automatically, that was as far as I got before landing without telling anybody. :o)

John
Author:  dtsakiris [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Untowered airports
ThomasAH wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:07 pm
Not sure ... long ... maybe 30 seconds?
Okay, thanks.
dtsakiris wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:41 am
By the way, some aircraft have a "VFR" button on the transponder to set squawk 1200 :)
True, but not all ;) Will upload the logs files this evening.
vololiberista wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:15 pm
Generally speaking the crew would set the transponder code "after" the readback. Sometimes within seconds but certainly within one minute after "readback correct". So PF3 does that about right. ATC probsbly wouldn't quibble until you call them back for push and/or start.
I'm talking about when, during an approach, ATC sends me into uncontrolled airspace. Not after clearance delivery.
Author:  dtsakiris [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Untowered airports
Here are the logs! I by the by made a mistake...further up, I meant "almost immediately", not "also immediately"...
Author:  ThomasAH [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Untowered airports
Code: Select all
3/13/2017 9:41:56 PM: 780 - Transcript: 'Piper November 232 Kilo Alpha Cleared to final for runway 16 Radar service terminated. Squawk 1200, change to advisory frequency approved on 132.5  '
3/13/2017 9:42:07 PM: 220 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!
3/13/2017 9:42:07 PM: 220 - ****** HotKey #21 detected!
3/13/2017 9:42:10 PM: 370 - ****** HotKey #21 detected!
3/13/2017 9:42:17 PM: 400 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!
3/13/2017 9:42:23 PM: 450 - Transcript: 'Piper November 232 Kilo Alpha Check your transponder. Squawk 1200  '
Hotkey 10 is Roger, 21 is PTT.
So it was 27 seconds after their call and 16 seconds after your first Roger.
Yes, that's quite fast, but I'm not sure if PF3 was confused due to the extra Roger here.
(I'm not implying that there is no bug in PF3 here, just that this could influence the result)

Dave, is this enough information for you, or do you need a log with just a single Roger response?
Author:  johnhinson [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Untowered airports
ThomasAH wrote: *  Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:30 am
OK, let me try to do it from memory, please confirm if that works:
[snip]
It certainly does for landing, Thomas, even though through clumsiness I didn't follow your instructions perfectly.

I'm sure they will be fine for take-off too, but I will confirm once I have done a suitable flight.

Best regards,

John
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