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Contacting departure...
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2220		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  jgoggi [ Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Contacting departure...
Hi, I am just looking at some videos in order to check the features of PF3 before purchasing. Right now I am looking at this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ynWalj5A3s

When the pilot contacts the departure frequency, he is only given the QNH (that's already not realistic, as I wrote in another topic) and continues on the SID as instructed by the ground clearance. As he reaches the initial altitude (5000 ft in this case), the controller says "RESUME OWN NAVIGATION". What??? What does that mean? He is ALREADY in his own navigation. This instruction should be given only in case the controller instructs to do something outside the programmed route and then, when the programmed route can be resumed, that instruction is given... So, another completely unrealistic instruction, I would almost say "a bug"... Further, does it ALWAYS happen that the departure controller clears to a higher altitude only AFTER the airplane has levelled at the iniatial altitude? If so, that's unrealistic. In real life most times you can expect a higher level BEFORE you reach that initial altitude, but ok, it may happen that you must keep the initial altitude as well, but in this case I would consider a random feature in PF3, that at times clears you to a higher level before reaching the initial altitude, at times no. Not that you ALWAYS reach the initial altitude and only after that you get a higher level.
Author:  Dave March [ Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Contacting departure...
Quote:
"RESUME OWN NAVIGATION". What??? What does that mean?
It means what it says... resume your OWN navigation because you've just completed the published departure!

Quote:
Further, does it ALWAYS happen that the departure controller clears to a higher altitude only AFTER the airplane has levelled at the iniatial altitude?
No, there's a random factor

Perhaps you ought to try the demo program to get a better understanding of how PF3 works
Author:  jgoggi [ Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Contacting departure...
Thank you Dave for your reply. Well, in thousands of ATC-pilot radio communications I have heard I have never heard "resume own navigation" at the end of the SID. What in few words I would like to highlight is that the real life departure phraseology is different from what I hear in PF3, no QNH and no "resume own navigation", but maybe a new altitude or a direct-to a waypoint or an assigned heading for a temporary vectoring, that's what I hear 99,9% of the times...
Author:  Dave March [ Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Contacting departure...
jgoggi wrote:
Thank you Dave for your reply. Well, in thousands of ATC-pilot radio communications I have heard I have never heard "resume own navigation" at the end of the SID. What in few words I would like to highlight is that the real life departure phraseology is different from what I hear in PF3, no QNH and no "resume own navigation", but maybe a new altitude or a direct-to a waypoint or an assigned heading for a temporary vectoring, that's what I hear 99,9% of the times...
Well the 'resume' was probably something I used that was in the can... can't honestly remember for sure as it was implemented about 10 years ago. If you are looking for 100% realism I guess PF3 is not for you and I'm not sure what ATC program is. ;)
Author:  Rustydog [ Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Contacting departure...
jgoggi wrote:
Further, does it ALWAYS happen that the departure controller clears to a higher altitude only AFTER the airplane has levelled at the iniatial altitude? If so, that's unrealistic. In real life most times you can expect a higher level BEFORE you reach that initial altitude, but ok, it may happen that you must keep the initial altitude as well, but in this case I would consider a random feature in PF3, that at times clears you to a higher level before reaching the initial altitude, at times no. Not that you ALWAYS reach the initial altitude and only after that you get a higher level.
Hi jgoggi,
I have used PF3 since day 1 and fly at least once every day. (Yeah I really need to get a life)
9 times out of 10 if not more I am cleared to higher altitudes before reaching the previous clearance.
Likewise on the way down usually cleared for lower before alt reached. Hope this helps on this issue.
Regards
Steve
Author:  jgoggi [ Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Contacting departure...
Thanks, Steve.
Dave, is it a big programming task to simply change, in a next update, the departure instructions from "QNH..." and "resume own navigation" to "climb to FL..." with some random "fly heading...." and only THEN "resume own navigation"? Thanks.
James
Author:  ThomasAH [ Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Contacting departure...
When not using a SID there already are heading calls.
I have attached a log of a flight I made yesterday (I removed the calls to/from AI aircraft to keep it short) as an example for this.
Additionally you can see here:
- Initial clearance is for FL50, I get cleared to FL70 while still climbing at 3500ft and cleared to FL120 when still climbing at FL55 (I wasn't able to climb as fast as I wanted here due to turbulences causing heavy IAS fluctuations).
- A new feature in the current beta: ATC now nags me if I do not follow their heading instructions.
Code: Select all
17/09/2016 23:27:16: K-B J-Bird 1608 Winds 090 at 4 runway 08 Right cleared for takeoff fly runway heading.
17/09/2016 23:27:25: E-L Roger Cleared for takeoff. runway heading J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:28:18: K-B J-Bird 1608 Contact departure on 123.6
17/09/2016 23:28:25: E-L 123.6 J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:28:38: E-L Departure J-Bird 1608 Out of 1 thousand 5 hundred for Flight Level 50 IFR
17/09/2016 23:28:47: H-B J-Bird 1608 Radar contact QNH 1016
17/09/2016 23:28:56: E-L J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:29:09: H-B J-Bird 1608 Turn left heading 330
17/09/2016 23:29:17: E-L left to 330 J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:30:10: H-B J-Bird 1608 Turn left heading 330
17/09/2016 23:30:17: E-L left to 330 J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:31:08: H-B J-Bird 1608 Climb to Flight Level 70
17/09/2016 23:31:17: E-L Roger Out of 3 thousand 5 hundred for Flight Level 70 J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:31:25: H-B J-Bird 1608 Turn left heading 330
17/09/2016 23:31:32: E-L left to 330 J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:32:10: H-B J-Bird 1608 Traffic at 9 o'clock 8 Miles 2 thousand 5 hundred Heading North 015
17/09/2016 23:32:23: E-L J-Bird 1608 has the traffic
17/09/2016 23:33:02: H-B J-Bird 1608 Turn left heading 320
17/09/2016 23:33:11: E-L left to 320 J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:33:23: H-B J-Bird 1608 resume own navigation
17/09/2016 23:33:30: E-L Roger resume own navigation J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:34:27: H-B J-Bird 1608 Climb and maintain Flight Level 120
17/09/2016 23:34:35: E-L Out of Flight Level 55 for Flight Level 120 J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:38:37: H-B J-Bird 1608 Contact BERLIN RADAR on 126.0
17/09/2016 23:38:45: E-L 126.0 J-Bird 1608
17/09/2016 23:38:53: E-L BERLIN RADAR J-Bird 1608 with you out of Flight Level 85 for Flight Level 120 IFR
17/09/2016 23:39:03: H-A Roger J-Bird 1608
Do I understand correctly that you would want to:
- remove the QNH 1016 from departure (I'm not sure how this would affect departing from airports without ATIS or even uncontrolled airports)
- add a single heading call, even when flying a SID, so "resume own navigation" makes sense?
Author:  Dave March [ Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Contacting departure...
jgoggi wrote:
Thanks, Steve.
Dave, is it a big programming task to simply change, in a next update, the departure instructions from "QNH..." and "resume own navigation" to "climb to FL..." with some random "fly heading...." and only THEN "resume own navigation"? Thanks.
James
If you're not flying a SID you will get heading instructions from Departure and then the 'Resume own navigation...'

As far as the QNH is concerned I believe that is a requirement
Author:  jgoggi [ Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Contacting departure...
- Never heard the departure controller giving QNH
- When on a SID it's absolutely incorrect to hear the departure controller say "resume own navigation", while it's correct after giving headings.
Author:  Dave March [ Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Contacting departure...
jgoggi wrote:
- Never heard the departure controller giving QNH
- When on a SID it's absolutely incorrect to hear the departure controller say "resume own navigation", while it's correct after giving headings.
Well I don't think we have anything else in the can to use in place of Resume own navigation
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