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Always overshoot the ILS
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2067		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Pe11e [ Mon May 23, 2016 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Always overshoot the ILS
My 4 flights so far with PF3 were unsuccessful. Last flight was total fail in both departure and approach. I've loaded flightplan from PFPX, as I always do, not using SID/STARS, just vectors in/out, as I always did also in PFE. Same routine, same flight profile as in PF2000 - Climb rate 4000', descent rate 1600' and approach speed 180.
I chose descent rate of 1600 because PF3 will be late with TOD related to NGX FMC.

So, my last flight from LSZH to EDDM. I was instructed to fly runway heading and climb to 6000'. But after I took off, ATC gave me only ALTITUDE instructions WITHOUT vectoring me to intersect the flight path, I did it manually. That was happened for the first time and left me confused. Not a single heading instruction up to cruise.

Cruise was at FL200. TOD was practically 2nm after NGX FMC TOD, which was fine. I started descending at 1600-2000ft/min rate to 15000'. When I reached instructed altitude, and leveled up, ATC went silent for 5 minutes while I was cruising at 15000'. Then I was instructed to descent to 7000', and I did it at 2000ft/min rate, which means I was on instructed altitude before the time. I did that on purpose because I know that PF3 is always late with descent/approach instructions.
Now important bit. I was on 7000' and instructed to descent to 4500' and to descent on ILS. When I got that instruction I was only 2-3nm away from ILS feather, so there was no chance I could descent that fast to capture the localizer! I descended at 1800ft/min rate, and of course overshoot the runway 26L by far, practically overshoot the whole airport (EDDM). Made a circle with the NGX and lined myself manually to capture the localizer.

Now, late ILS approaches happens on EVERY flight, which is pretty frustrating. I must manually line up for the final approach. Why do I need ATC then? :)
Note that I've set descent rate of 1600ft/min in the PF3 flight profile, and I always descent at a higher or the same rate.

I'm not sure why this is happening since I didn't had a single problem with PFE.

I attached the flight plan and LOG file.

Thank you in advance!
Author:  Dave Leesley [ Tue May 24, 2016 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Always overshoot the ILS
Worth a try...reduce your approach speed in your profile to a lower speed,assuming it's a 737NGX then try around 140-150 depending on your payload.
Author:  vololiberista [ Tue May 24, 2016 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Always overshoot the ILS
Dave Leesley wrote:
Worth a try...reduce your approach speed in your profile to a lower speed,assuming it's a 737NGX then try around 140-150 depending on your payload.
This is a case of flying an approach at too fast a speed
Quote:
5/23/2016 3:17:25 AM: 290 - MaxSpeedIAS: 270
5/23/2016 3:17:25 AM: 290 - MAX Speed IAS is set to 270 VelocityIndicated=286
You were less than 23nm from your destination. And below 10,000ft.
As you are flying a jet transport set your approach speed in the a/c profile to 160. That will give a margin to slow down for landing at 6DME. Make sure that you "hear" any requests to slow down. Even if you don't hear ATC you should slow down anyway in preparation for establishing on the localiser. Quite often the charts will give you an advisory speed.
Author:  Pe11e [ Tue May 24, 2016 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Always overshoot the ILS
Ok guys, will try to respect speed restrictions, will set final app speed to 160, and will report back. :)
Anyway I also have set approach speed in PFE to some number like 180, no flaps stall speed + 30 I think, and it worked like a charm.

At least it is obvious that Dave changed the code completely. :) What worked in PFE doesn't work here anymore, or vice versa.
Author:  vololiberista [ Tue May 24, 2016 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Always overshoot the ILS
Pe11e wrote:
Ok guys, will try to respect speed restrictions, will set final app speed to 160, and will report back. :)
Anyway I also have set approach speed in PFE to some number like 180, no flaps stall speed + 30 I think, and it worked like a charm.

At least it is obvious that Dave changed the code completely. :) What worked in PFE doesn't work here anymore, or vice versa.
The final approach speed was actually in PFE too but as an ini tweak. It was however tied to the aircraft cfg file. Whereas now you can adjust it for more realism.
Author:  Pe11e [ Tue May 24, 2016 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Always overshoot the ILS
vololiberista wrote:
Pe11e wrote:
Ok guys, will try to respect speed restrictions, will set final app speed to 160, and will report back. :)
Anyway I also have set approach speed in PFE to some number like 180, no flaps stall speed + 30 I think, and it worked like a charm.

At least it is obvious that Dave changed the code completely. :) What worked in PFE doesn't work here anymore, or vice versa.
The final approach speed was actually in PFE too but as an ini tweak. It was however tied to the aircraft cfg file. Whereas now you can adjust it for more realism.
Yes, I know, that's why I mentioned no flap stall speed.
Anyway, I've just checked it out, this is from NGX aircraft.cfg:

flaps_up_stall_speed = 142.0

and this is from PF_Emulator.ini:

FinalApproachSpeed=40

so, as I 've said, in PFE approach speed was set at 180 (142+40), and it worked like a charm, no problems whatsoever. I simply don't know why in PF3 doesn't work as it should. Different logic I guess.
Author:  vololiberista [ Wed May 25, 2016 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Always overshoot the ILS
Pe11e wrote:
vololiberista wrote:
Pe11e wrote:
Ok guys, will try to respect speed restrictions, will set final app speed to 160, and will report back. :)
Anyway I also have set approach speed in PFE to some number like 180, no flaps stall speed + 30 I think, and it worked like a charm.

At least it is obvious that Dave changed the code completely. :) What worked in PFE doesn't work here anymore, or vice versa.
The final approach speed was actually in PFE too but as an ini tweak. It was however tied to the aircraft cfg file. Whereas now you can adjust it for more realism.
Yes, I know, that's why I mentioned no flap stall speed.
Anyway, I've just checked it out, this is from NGX aircraft.cfg:

flaps_up_stall_speed = 142.0

and this is from PF_Emulator.ini:

FinalApproachSpeed=40

so, as I 've said, in PFE approach speed was set at 180 (142+40), and it worked like a charm, no problems whatsoever. I simply don't know why in PF3 doesn't work as it should. Different logic I guess.
I'll have a gander at your fpl. There are certain types of approach that cause PF3 to not issue "expected" speed reductions. I presume that your FAF settings in options #2 are default.
Author:  Pe11e [ Wed May 25, 2016 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Always overshoot the ILS
My FAF settings were default (7mi, 3000ft), and I've changed them to 9mi, 3000ft, since I overshoot the ILS once again last night although I was a bit too fast again. PF3 didn't gave me speed instruction when I was close to the ILS. Last speed instruction was to slow down to 200, no 180/160kts instructions whatsoever.
Author:  vololiberista [ Wed May 25, 2016 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Always overshoot the ILS
Pe11e wrote:
My FAF settings were default (7mi, 3000ft), and I've changed them to 9mi, 3000ft, since I overshoot the ILS once again last night although I was a bit too fast again. PF3 didn't gave me speed instruction when I was close to the ILS. Last speed instruction was to slow down to 200, no 180/160kts instructions whatsoever.
Quote:
was to slow down to 200, no 180/160kts instructions whatsoever
Oh Really!! What's this then!
Quote:
5/23/2016 3:23:55 AM: 690 - Transcript: 'Delta 945 Reduce speed to 180 '
5/23/2016 3:23:55 AM: 720 - FS Screen : Delta 945 Reduce speed to 180
You were 11nm from the runway.
I have just flown your fpl and got all the speed reductions 200 -- 180 -- 160 and then at 6DME I slowed down to Vref+5 so I am not able to repeat your problem as PF3 did what I expected.
Repeat the flight and maintain a listening watch. If you still can't hear ATC then post the logs.
Author:  ThomasAH [ Wed May 25, 2016 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Always overshoot the ILS
vololiberista wrote:
Repeat the flight and maintain a listening watch. If you still can't hear ATC then post the logs.
And in the next update the Say Again window will be fixed :)
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