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Runway changes
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1983		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  helix1250 [ Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Runway changes
Hi everyone,

Just a quickie question on runway changes when no AI is present.

Last night I was flying into LIRN and there was no AI visible, I was expecting Rwy 24 based on the winds shown during flight planning. But on approach the wind had dropped to 000VRB @ 2knots, this lead me getting a few runway change notifications.

Is there a way to set a wind speed factor in such a way that if the wind speed is below let's say 6knts it sticks to the standard planned runway, or does that do it already or tries to?

These runway changes ended up giving me a few head aches regarding FAF altitudes and distances as I mentioned in in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1963)

Regards Rob

Sorry no logs to view :(
Author:  Dan77 [ Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway changes
Rob, you can still request a different runway, or if PF3 switches you around, you can request the runway you had previously been assigned. This happened to me on my last flight. The key sequence is Ctrl+Shift+W or the request should also work by voice if using MCE.

Edit: Just found this post: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1809&start=10#p10147
Author:  sbsim [ Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway changes
If you by any chance use Active Sky Next, it has two options that help a lot with this problem: Force ATC wind lock and Prevent downloads on approach.
Author:  helix1250 [ Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway changes
Thanks for the replies Dan and sbsim.

As it happens Sbsim I am using ASN :)

Okay this is what I did last night, and I am sorry if I mention other products in this post but I just want to explain my flight plan process, then I might be able to find away around the runway swap.

During my start up I start ASN (last night with force ATC lock on), I then load PFPX and check its updated via ASN. I plan my route, last night LIRN to EGKK. PFPX had me set for a Rwy 24 departure and a 26L arrival. I exported my flight plan in the required formats.

I fired up PF3 and loaded my FP, checked setting and set my FAF height and distance for 26L, I then made and altered my arrival height to be at 4K at waypoint Timba. Saved and returned to the main screen ready to connect to FS

I load FSX-SE, input my flight plan which also loads the FP into ASN, set departure airport, plane and time of day. Then load to sim and load FP to aircraft

I then take off and during cruise check the weather in the addons window for ASN and PF3 ATIS. Winds were at 151@6 which gave me a 08R arrival. Which is no drama normally, but as mentioned in another thread the FAF heights and distances are very different at EGKK. As I approached I was obviously given vectors to 08, but then I also know that getting established on the ILS will be a mess as once you have planned you route you can't alter the FAF settings. And yes I had to make a few alterations to my flight to get established, it was like a roller coaster at Alton Towers ;)

Anyway I am currently waiting to hear from the guys over at ASN as to what triggers the ATC lock so I can work out arrival runway correctly.

I hope in time that PF3 will have some form of option(s) that can cater for this issue :)

Regards Rob
Author:  vololiberista [ Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway changes
helix1250 wrote:
Thanks for the replies Dan and sbsim.

As it happens Sbsim I am using ASN :)

Okay this is what I did last night, and I am sorry if I mention other products in this post but I just want to explain my flight plan process, then I might be able to find away around the runway swap.

During my start up I start ASN (last night with force ATC lock on), I then load PFPX and check its updated via ASN. I plan my route, last night LIRN to EGKK. PFPX had me set for a Rwy 24 departure and a 26L arrival. I exported my flight plan in the required formats.

I fired up PF3 and loaded my FP, checked setting and set my FAF height and distance for 26L, I then made and altered my arrival height to be at 4K at waypoint Timba. Saved and returned to the main screen ready to connect to FS

I load FSX-SE, input my flight plan which also loads the FP into ASN, set departure airport, plane and time of day. Then load to sim and load FP to aircraft

I then take off and during cruise check the weather in the addons window for ASN and PF3 ATIS. Winds were at 151@6 which gave me a 08R arrival. Which is no drama normally, but as mentioned in another thread the FAF heights and distances are very different at EGKK. As I approached I was obviously given vectors to 08, but then I also know that getting established on the ILS will be a mess as once you have planned you route you can't alter the FAF settings. And yes I had to make a few alterations to my flight to get established, it was like a roller coaster at Alton Towers ;)

Anyway I am currently waiting to hear from the guys over at ASN as to what triggers the ATC lock so I can work out arrival runway correctly.

I hope in time that PF3 will have some form of option(s) that can cater for this issue :)

Regards Rob
As far as FAF distance goes I still think the best option is for PF3 to calculate it according to the FAF altitude entered by the user. Though the only snag is that it would be generic for 3deg glideslopes. It is possible for a sim gauge to identify the glideslope angle but only from when the glideslope is active. And I don't think PF3 would be able to see that if there isn't a hook in FSUIPC.

I generally find with weather that PF3 likes to be loaded last. If not I get all sorts of anomalies. Anyway let us know what ASN have to say.
Author:  sbsim [ Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway changes
Hi Rob,
  1. 'Force ATC wind lock' updates the wind to the latest conditions before arrival, but only once. The wind is reset when you cross the 80nm threshold to your destination, if using a flight plan, or within 3000ft AGL of the surface otherwise. This function also forces a minimum wind speed of 6 knots as FSX-code-based sims unpredictably change AI runway selection when the wind speed is below 6 knots.
  2. To prevent any changes in weather, you have to put ASN to Manual offline mode. When you select 'Weather Mode - Manual' in ASN, your current weather worldwide (as last downloaded) is fixed and activated. Thereafter, you can do your flight planning in PFPX and, subsequently, prepare and connect PF3.
Roman
Author:  helix1250 [ Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway changes
vololiberista wrote:
Quote:

As far as FAF distance goes I still think the best option is for PF3 to calculate it according to the FAF altitude entered by the user. Though the only snag is that it would be generic for 3deg glideslopes. It is possible for a sim gauge to identify the glideslope angle but only from when the glideslope is active. And I don't think PF3 would be able to see that if there isn't a hook in FSUIPC.

I generally find with weather that PF3 likes to be loaded last. If not I get all sorts of anomalies. Anyway let us know what ASN have to say.
Thanks for the replies :)

I agree vololiberista, it would be great to rely on PF3 to calculate the FAF. But let's say you plan for a 08 arrival at a EGKK, and the FAF alt is 3000feet and you get cleared to 26 which has a FAF of 2000feet, and not to mention the differing distances of the FAF. On that example, If I were to intercept the ILS on 26 I would be 1000 feet to high and at the incorrect distance as well. Not a great situation to be in I'm sure you agree! In that case I have to ignore ATC instructions, which would make it pointless in using if you have to ignore it.

There must be a solution someone has or is using to overcome this? Anyone?

As for my post on ASN, that has been answered by Roman on this thread. Thank you Roman :)

Regards Rob
Author:  vololiberista [ Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway changes
helix1250 wrote:
vololiberista wrote:
Quote:

As far as FAF distance goes I still think the best option is for PF3 to calculate it according to the FAF altitude entered by the user. Though the only snag is that it would be generic for 3deg glideslopes. It is possible for a sim gauge to identify the glideslope angle but only from when the glideslope is active. And I don't think PF3 would be able to see that if there isn't a hook in FSUIPC.

I generally find with weather that PF3 likes to be loaded last. If not I get all sorts of anomalies. Anyway let us know what ASN have to say.
Thanks for the replies :)

I agree vololiberista, it would be great to rely on PF3 to calculate the FAF. But let's say you plan for a 08 arrival at a EGKK, and the FAF alt is 3000feet and you get cleared to 26 which has a FAF of 2000feet, and not to mention the differing distances of the FAF. On that example, If I were to intercept the ILS on 26 I would be 1000 feet to high and at the incorrect distance as well. Not a great situation to be in I'm sure you agree! In that case I have to ignore ATC instructions, which would make it pointless in using if you have to ignore it.

There must be a solution someone has or is using to overcome this? Anyone?

As for my post on ASN, that has been answered by Roman on this thread. Thank you Roman :)

Regards Rob
Currently PF3 allows you to set only one FAF altitude so in your case choose the higher and all that will mean is that you join three miles further out. Bear in mind that the FAF altitude is always QNH and not height above ground. The actual meaning of the word "altitude!" is height above sea level. The current EGKK charts at Eurocontrol display an FAF altitude of 3,000ft QNH for rwy 08 so I'm not sure where you got 2,000ft from as there is also an obstacle clearance minimum of 1,000ft.
Author:  helix1250 [ Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway changes
I was saying that I have in the past been switch to the other end of the runway and in this example would be 26L which has a FAF of 2000 feet. (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic ... -09-18.pdf)

Maybe I didn't explain that very well in my first post.

Rob
Author:  helix1250 [ Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Runway changes
Yes its me again!

Look please don't think I am having a pop, but there is something amiss, well on my system anyway.

Tonight I few back to EGKK, planned for 26, checked Acars Atis and see it was 08R. Fine I can deal with that, I was given ATC instruction for expect vectors to ILS runway 08R. Okay I expected that I thought. I was on a timba arrival and was told to turn left 270, I did and followed the speed restictions given.

I was then told to turn right 075, okay I did that and then 065. I was now running parallel to 08R, no where near a ILS intercept... I followed the instructions, I requested local Acars Atis a few times and was told it was not available. I ended up at almost Headcorn airfield before I did a turn and headed for 26L, I made a call to approach requesting 26 and was given a 26L approach. I narrowly missed a taking off A321 which was on 08R departure as I approached. I could not contact Tower and never got clearance. I landed and dived off the runway before a A319 took off.

I will attach my logs for inspection, but I am pretty sure something is amis somewhere. I took a picture of the information on my communication log after I was passed to approach which is in the file as well.

Regards Rob
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