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Chosen Runway for takeoff
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1915		 Page 5 of 6
Author:  benjoglove [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
Further update:

I reinstalled PF3 thinking it may have been a bad install.

I did another flight YPAD to YMML. This time I landed and was taxiing (I didn't get PF3 atc again as per before). Halfway to the gate which wasn't far away, it began giving me clearance to land (hadnt done that before). It went through all the clearance protocols. It then went into the landed protocols i.e. contact tower when clear of active runway. Made me standby and then cleared me to the gate. this was the first time that I had heard all of the clearances to land and to go the taxi. It was basically catching up to FSX and what I had done and was playing catch up.

It appears that PF3 is behind the rest of FSX. FDC is working well and doing what it should, when it should, so it has to be something with PF3. New logs attached. I also tried it this time with a standard plane and not the liveries I normally use.

Further info for what I am using at the time: FSX, FDC, FSC9, PF3, GSX.
Author:  benjoglove [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
sorry for all the posts.

Can someone tell me when clearance is given to land? Is it the last way point before landing? In my flight plan I get the error message that a waypoint is too close to the destination. Could this be the cause? I am using FSC9 to create my flight plans and use it for my headings in flight. FSC9 wont let me delete a waypoint instead I can only delete the whole SID or STAR arrangement. Just a thought.

I have added my flightplan as an attachment.
Author:  vololiberista [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
benjoglove wrote:
sorry for all the posts.

Can someone tell me when clearance is given to land? Is it the last way point before landing? In my flight plan I get the error message that a waypoint is too close to the destination. Could this be the cause? I am using FSC9 to create my flight plans and use it for my headings in flight. FSC9 wont let me delete a waypoint instead I can only delete the whole SID or STAR arrangement. Just a thought.

I have added my flightplan as an attachment.
The last wypt on your fpl is 14DME from the destination. So that's not too close! what was your altitude at that point? PF3 usually gives landing clearance in good time but ocassionally you will get a late landing clearance.
Try this fpl and add your SIDs and STARs.
YPAD-YMML.zip
(507 Bytes) Downloaded 166 times
Author:  benjoglove [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
vololiberista wrote:
benjoglove wrote:
sorry for all the posts.

Can someone tell me when clearance is given to land? Is it the last way point before landing? In my flight plan I get the error message that a waypoint is too close to the destination. Could this be the cause? I am using FSC9 to create my flight plans and use it for my headings in flight. FSC9 wont let me delete a waypoint instead I can only delete the whole SID or STAR arrangement. Just a thought.

I have added my flightplan as an attachment.
The last wypt on your fpl is 14DME from the destination. So that's not too close! what was your altitude at that point? PF3 usually gives landing clearance in good time but ocassionally you will get a late landing clearance.
Try this fpl and add your SIDs and STARs.
YPAD-YMML.zip
I think it was roughly 4000 without looking into it. This late clearance was when i was nearly at the gate so im assuming it shouldnt be that late? Ill give that a crack tommorrow thanks. Anything in the logs that would help?
Author:  ThomasAH [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
benjoglove wrote:
I did another flight YPAD to YMML. This time I landed and was taxiing (I didn't get PF3 atc again as per before). Halfway to the gate which wasn't far away, it began giving me clearance to land (hadnt done that before). It went through all the clearance protocols. It then went into the landed protocols i.e. contact tower when clear of active runway. Made me standby and then cleared me to the gate. this was the first time that I had heard all of the clearances to land and to go the taxi. It was basically catching up to FSX and what I had done and was playing catch up.

It appears that PF3 is behind the rest of FSX. FDC is working well and doing what it should, when it should, so it has to be something with PF3. New logs attached. I also tried it this time with a standard plane and not the liveries I normally use.
Code: Select all
19-Mar-16 4:34:12 PM: 930 - Current Waypoint No: 9  Dest: 9  iLanding: 0 iClimb=0  Dist to next WP: 15.66808
19-Mar-16 4:34:12 PM: 930 - Ulat: -37.4121738061813 ULon: 144.787636275863 UHdg: 164 UAlt: 5152 UIAS=251 OTG=False
19-Mar-16 4:34:14 PM: 190 - Transcript: 'Abex 4 Continue present heading expect vectors for the ILS runway 16 Approach  '
19-Mar-16 4:34:21 PM: 750 - Transcript: 'Roger Abex 4  '
19-Mar-16 4:34:41 PM: 640 - Transcript: 'Abex 4 Turn right heading 170  '
19-Mar-16 4:34:46 PM: 130 - Transcript: 'right to 170 Abex 4  '
19-Mar-16 4:34:56 PM: 580 - Transcript: 'Abex 4 Descend and maintain 3 thousand 5 hundred  '
19-Mar-16 4:35:02 PM: 000 - Transcript: 'Out of 4 thousand for 3 thousand 5 hundred Abex 4  '
19-Mar-16 4:35:11 PM: 440 - Transcript: 'Abex 4 Reduce speed to 140  '
19-Mar-16 4:35:16 PM: 750 - Transcript: '140 Abex 4  '
19-Mar-16 4:35:22 PM: 420 - Current Waypoint No: 9  Dest: 9  iLanding: 1 iClimb=0  Dist to next WP: 10.4265
19-Mar-16 4:35:22 PM: 420 - Ulat: -37.4983032111653 ULon: 144.806119879756 UHdg: 159 UAlt: 3489 UIAS=257 OTG=False
But now you did not turn right and did not stay at 3500ft, but stayed at 160 and landed without clearance!
On the ground, you vacated the runway and turned to heading 170, which PF3 waited for and continued vectoring:
Code: Select all
19-Mar-16 4:43:39 PM: 780 - Current Waypoint No: 9  Dest: 9  iLanding: 1 iClimb=0  Dist to next WP: 0.4445063
19-Mar-16 4:43:39 PM: 790 - Ulat: -37.6663733289372 ULon: 144.848154604742 UHdg: 170 UAlt: 442 UIAS=3 OTG=True
19-Mar-16 4:43:40 PM: 850 - Transcript: 'Abex 4 Turn right heading 130  '
19-Mar-16 4:43:45 PM: 690 - Transcript: 'right to 130 Abex 4  '
But this time PF3 noticed that you caught the ILS and cleared you for landing:
Code: Select all
19-Mar-16 4:44:05 PM: 510 - Current Waypoint No: 9  Dest: 9  iLanding: 1 iClimb=0  Dist to next WP: 0.4359249
19-Mar-16 4:44:05 PM: 510 - Ulat: -37.6666287810449 ULon: 144.848134316848 UHdg: 172 UAlt: 442 UIAS=1 OTG=True
19-Mar-16 4:44:06 PM: 370 - Transcript: 'Abex 4 Cleared for the ILS runway 16 Approach Contact Tower on 120.5 when established. descend on ILS  '
19-Mar-16 4:44:17 PM: 700 - Transcript: 'until established on the ILS runway 16  descend on ILS   Contact Tower on 120.5 when established. Abex 4  '
19-Mar-16 4:44:32 PM: 670 - Transcript: 'Tower Abex 4 On the ground IFR Landing  '
19-Mar-16 4:44:38 PM: 180 - Transcript: 'Abex 4 continue Approach you're number 1 for Landing  '
I see two errors here:
- You did not follow ATC's instructions.
- ATC did not "politely" ask you to go around, but instead patiently waited for you to follow their instructions.

And PF3's warning about the last waypoint being too close is not a big problem, but you should then take care to set a useful altitude for it and maybe even start to reduce speed earlier than being told. The assigned altitude was 5000ft, but you needed to be at 3500ft only 5 miles later (at the FAF), this caused you to speed up to 257 knots (as expected when diving so fast) and making these 5 miles in just one minute. I suggest declaring a missed approach when you run into such situations, but maybe it would still have worked well if you had followed the vectoring?

But it looks like the technical problems with your installation are solved, congratulations!

Dave, can you do anything about ATC waiting for the aircraft reaching the correct vectors?
Author:  Dave March [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
benjoglove wrote:
Further update:

I reinstalled PF3 thinking it may have been a bad install.

I did another flight YPAD to YMML. This time I landed and was taxiing (I didn't get PF3 atc again as per before). Halfway to the gate which wasn't far away, it began giving me clearance to land (hadnt done that before). It went through all the clearance protocols. It then went into the landed protocols i.e. contact tower when clear of active runway. Made me standby and then cleared me to the gate. this was the first time that I had heard all of the clearances to land and to go the taxi. It was basically catching up to FSX and what I had done and was playing catch up.

It appears that PF3 is behind the rest of FSX. FDC is working well and doing what it should, when it should, so it has to be something with PF3. New logs attached. I also tried it this time with a standard plane and not the liveries I normally use.

Further info for what I am using at the time: FSX, FDC, FSC9, PF3, GSX.
Okay, the reason why everything went haywire was due to a couple of issue. Firstly, on reaching your last waypoint you were instructed to turn right to a heading of 170, but you never complied, and so PF3 sat waiting for you to do so. You kept on a heading of 160 and took it upon yourself to descend and land. The second issue here is PF3 SHOULD have nagged you about not complying to the heading change.

I notice you are using VCP mode #3 so during the approach if you had left you AP/HDG set to ON the VCP would have made the turn by adjusting the AP.

Please try the flight again and be sure to comply to all ATC instructions. In the meantime I'll look into why you didn't get nagged!
Author:  benjoglove [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
This is the part im confused about. I use fsc9 and use there auto heading as atc send me out in the sticks. Is this part of the problem. Fsc9 ignores atc and flies the course set. I flew one today without fsc9 and pf3 atc sent me out to mildura then wigned i was miles out.


. I didnt get clearance till after i was already taxiing. The last i heard was the vectoring part. Continued to descend as per pf3 settings and then ils then landed. Once taxiing then i got all the other parts about clearance to land and then it changed to taxiing. Doing my head in. Until landing its a great flight!
Author:  Dave March [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
benjoglove wrote:
This is the part im confused about. I use fsc9 and use there auto heading as atc send me out in the sticks. Is this part of the problem. Fsc9 ignores atc and flies the course set. I flew one today without fsc9 and pf3 atc sent me out to mildura then wigned i was miles out.
Using FSC9 for your lateral navigation or an FMC or a bog standard GPS unit is absolutely fine but you should only initiate it AFTER being told to 'Resume own navigation' and I would strongly suggest turning it OFF just before reaching your last waypoint. If you would then like your VCP to take over lateral navigation you should ensure your AP and HDG are set ON. Of course if you wanted to fly a manual approach you could do so but you would have to listen out for any ATC instructions and comply as soon as possible.

Quote:
. I didn't get clearance till after i was already taxiing. The last i heard was the vectoring part. Continued to descend as per pf3 settings and then ils then landed. Once taxiing then i got all the other parts about clearance to land and then it changed to taxiing. Doing my head in. Until landing its a great flight!
Obviously that should never happen and (a) it wouldn't have happened had not ignored ATC instructions and (b) it won't happen again once I address the issue because ATC will remind you to turn to the correct heading
Author:  benjoglove [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
Ok will try again with your recommendations and see how we go. Cheers.
Author:  ThomasAH [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chosen Runway for takeoff
ThomasAH wrote:
But now you did not turn right and did not stay at 3500ft, but stayed at 160 and landed without clearance!
...
I see two errors here:
- You did not follow ATC's instructions.
- ATC did not "politely" ask you to go around, but instead patiently waited for you to follow their instructions.
...
Dave, can you do anything about ATC waiting for the aircraft reaching the correct vectors?
dmarch wrote:
Okay, the reason why everything went haywire was due to a couple of issue. Firstly, on reaching your last waypoint you were instructed to turn right to a heading of 170, but you never complied, and so PF3 sat waiting for you to do so. You kept on a heading of 160 and took it upon yourself to descend and land. The second issue here is PF3 SHOULD have nagged you about not complying to the heading change.
...
Please try the flight again and be sure to comply to all ATC instructions. In the meantime I'll look into why you didn't get nagged!
Good we came to the same conclusion :)
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