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PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4384		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  SkyCamel [ Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
I guess I was instructed to do so if not I don't see any reason why I should deviate from my plan.
Author:  Dave March [ Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
SkyCamel wrote: *  Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:21 pm
I guess I was instructed to do so if not I don't see any reason why I should deviate from my plan.
Afraid not, you didn't get a single turn command...
Quote:
12/21/2023 2:48:51 PM: 880 - Transcript: 'Ground Condor 8632 at parking number 95 to EBBR with information Oscar Requesting Clearance '
12/21/2023 2:49:05 PM: 140 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 cleared to EBBR Delta Papa departure Climb and maintain Flight Level 240 Squawk 4542 '
12/21/2023 2:49:17 PM: 800 - Transcript: 'cleared to EBBR departure using Delta Papa cleared to F240 Squawk 4542 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 2:49:31 PM: 920 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Readback correct. QNH 981 Report ready for push and start '
12/21/2023 2:49:40 PM: 520 - Transcript: 'Roger QNH 981 Report ready for push and start Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 2:58:08 PM: 910 - Transcript: 'Ground Condor 8632 request push and start '
12/21/2023 2:58:17 PM: 170 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 push and start approved Heading West Report When ready to taxi '
12/21/2023 2:58:27 PM: 770 - Transcript: 'push and start approved Heading West Report When ready to taxi Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:02:25 PM: 740 - Transcript: 'Ground Condor 8632 Ready to taxi. '
12/21/2023 3:02:29 PM: 770 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Roger. Taxi to holding point, runway 23 using taxiway Yankee 3 Delta 1 Bravo 6 Zulu 3 Alpha 1 '
12/21/2023 3:02:43 PM: 870 - Transcript: 'Yankee 3 Delta 1 Bravo 6 Zulu 3 Alpha 1 holding point, runway 23 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:08:47 PM: 640 - Transcript: 'Ground Condor 8632 Requesting Clearance to Continue Taxi '
12/21/2023 3:08:53 PM: 720 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 stand by '
12/21/2023 3:09:08 PM: 260 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 cleared to Continue Taxi '
12/21/2023 3:09:15 PM: 840 - Transcript: 'Continue Taxi Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:11:56 PM: 890 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Contact Tower on 121.27 '
12/21/2023 3:12:04 PM: 470 - Transcript: '121.27 Condor 8632 Good day '
12/21/2023 3:12:16 PM: 550 - Transcript: 'Tower Condor 8632 runway 23 ready for departure '
12/21/2023 3:12:25 PM: 620 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Winds 270 at 20 runway 23 Cleared for takeoff '
12/21/2023 3:12:33 PM: 230 - Transcript: 'Roger Cleared for takeoff. Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:14:26 PM: 580 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Contact departure on 134.25 '
12/21/2023 3:14:34 PM: 140 - Transcript: 'Roger 134.25 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:14:42 PM: 220 - Transcript: 'Hannover Radar Condor 8632 Out of 1 thousand 5 hundred for Flight Level 240 '
12/21/2023 3:14:51 PM: 300 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Squawk Ident QNH 981 '
12/21/2023 3:16:25 PM: 020 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Contact Hannover Radar on 135.45 '
12/21/2023 3:16:32 PM: 600 - Transcript: 'Roger 135.45 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:16:42 PM: 660 - Transcript: 'Hannover Radar Condor 8632 with you out of Flight Level 105 for Flight Level 240 '
12/21/2023 3:16:52 PM: 720 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Roger '
12/21/2023 3:21:09 PM: 610 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Climb Flight Level 340 '
12/21/2023 3:21:19 PM: 180 - Transcript: 'Out of Flight Level 240 for Flight Level 340 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:26:22 PM: 050 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Climb Flight Level 360 '
12/21/2023 3:26:29 PM: 620 - Transcript: 'Out of Flight Level 325 for Flight Level 360 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:28:55 PM: 750 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Traffic at 12 o'clock 15 Miles Flight Level 345 Heading East 060 '
12/21/2023 3:29:08 PM: 390 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Roger thank you. '
12/21/2023 3:32:25 PM: 950 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Contact Amsterdam Center on 124.95 '
12/21/2023 3:32:34 PM: 550 - Transcript: 'Roger 124.95 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:32:44 PM: 680 - Transcript: 'Amsterdam Center Condor 8632 Level at Flight Level 360 '
12/21/2023 3:32:52 PM: 750 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:47:32 PM: 300 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Contact Amsterdam Center on 123.72 '
12/21/2023 3:47:42 PM: 880 - Transcript: 'Roger 123.72 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:47:50 PM: 950 - Transcript: 'Amsterdam Center Condor 8632 with you level Flight Level 360 '
12/21/2023 3:47:58 PM: 990 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:48:10 PM: 630 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Traffic at 9 o'clock 10 Miles Flight Level 350 Heading West 290 Traffic at 11 o'clock 14 Miles Flight Level 370 Heading East 110 '
12/21/2023 3:48:25 PM: 310 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 has the traffic '
12/21/2023 3:49:18 PM: 890 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Descend and maintain Flight Level 320 '
12/21/2023 3:49:27 PM: 480 - Transcript: 'Out of Flight Level 360 for Flight Level 320 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:50:31 PM: 200 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Descend to Flight Level 290 '
12/21/2023 3:50:37 PM: 740 - Transcript: 'Out of Flight Level 340 for Flight Level 290 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:51:00 PM: 010 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Traffic at 3 o'clock 7 Miles Altitude unknown Heading West 270 '
12/21/2023 3:51:10 PM: 620 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 has the traffic '
12/21/2023 3:52:30 PM: 640 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Descend to Flight Level 240 '
12/21/2023 3:52:39 PM: 190 - Transcript: 'Roger Out of Flight Level 290 for Flight Level 240 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:53:35 PM: 770 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Contact Brussels Control on 122.5 '
12/21/2023 3:53:42 PM: 340 - Transcript: 'Roger 122.5 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:53:50 PM: 430 - Transcript: 'Brussels Control Condor 8632 Out of Flight Level 260 for Flight Level 240 '
12/21/2023 3:53:59 PM: 480 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Roger '
12/21/2023 3:54:07 PM: 050 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Descend and maintain Flight Level 230 '
12/21/2023 3:54:17 PM: 620 - Transcript: 'Roger Out of Flight Level 245 for Flight Level 230 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:54:27 PM: 720 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Traffic at 12 o'clock 6 Miles Flight Level 220 Heading South 200 '
12/21/2023 3:54:38 PM: 320 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 has the traffic '
12/21/2023 3:54:44 PM: 380 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Descend to Flight Level 200 '
12/21/2023 3:54:51 PM: 910 - Transcript: 'Out of Flight Level 235 for Flight Level 200 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:55:24 PM: 250 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Descend to Flight Level 170 '
12/21/2023 3:55:32 PM: 830 - Transcript: 'Out of Flight Level 210 for Flight Level 170 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:56:33 PM: 560 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Descend and maintain Flight Level 140 '
12/21/2023 3:56:41 PM: 160 - Transcript: 'Out of Flight Level 185 for Flight Level 140 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:57:02 PM: 630 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Contact Approach on 122.2 '
12/21/2023 3:57:10 PM: 210 - Transcript: 'Roger 122.2 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:57:20 PM: 290 - Transcript: 'Approach Condor 8632 with you out of Flight Level 170 '
12/21/2023 3:57:28 PM: 340 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Roger '
12/21/2023 3:57:33 PM: 160 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 at Kilo Echo Romeo Kilo Yankee Descend 3 thousand on 1001 Cleared to final for runway 25 Left when ready Contact Tower on 127.15 when established. '
12/21/2023 3:57:49 PM: 800 - Transcript: 'Roger Out of Flight Level 155 for 3 thousand at Kilo Echo Romeo Kilo Yankee until established on the ILS runway 25 Left Tower on 127.15 when established. Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 3:58:27 PM: 230 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Reduce speed to 180 '
12/21/2023 3:58:32 PM: 790 - Transcript: '180 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 4:00:03 PM: 460 - Transcript: 'Tower Condor 8632 at 11 Miles to the east at Flight Level 125 Landing '
12/21/2023 4:00:11 PM: 550 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 continue Approach you're number 1 for Landing '
12/21/2023 4:00:22 PM: 160 - Transcript: 'continue Approach number 1 for Landing Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 4:00:53 PM: 470 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Reduce speed to 160 '
12/21/2023 4:01:01 PM: 060 - Transcript: '160 Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 4:02:24 PM: 610 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Winds 270 at 22 Cleared to land runway 25 Left '
12/21/2023 4:02:35 PM: 230 - Transcript: 'Cleared to land runway 25 Left Condor 8632 '
12/21/2023 4:03:06 PM: 650 - Transcript: 'Condor 8632 Reduce speed to 160 '
12/21/2023 4:03:15 PM: 230 - Transcript: '160 Condor 8632 '
Author:  pointy56 [ Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
SkyCamel wrote: *  Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:45 am
And that's exactly what is so disturbing to me. Why should I start adjusting something which is made for and is perfectly correct
for the aircraft I'm flying? The FP I'm loading into FP3 is made by Simbrief and based on the aircraft I'm flying.
Here is a fairly detailed explanation of how I set up and successfully flew a flight plan for the same route that you generated in SimBrief.
Although I was using the PMDG 737-600, rather than the FBW A32NX, the principles are exactly the same and should work for most aircraft.

(Regarding your strange flight path, I'm wondering if you had the STAR and Approach set correctly in your FMC)

Please do come back if anything is unclear.

Cheers,
Martin
Author:  SkyCamel [ Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
Quote:
Here is a fairly detailed explanation of how I set up and successfully flew a flight plan for the same route that you generated in SimBrief.
I will have a look thank you. It will not be for the next days the wife grounded me :D
Quote:
(Regarding your strange flight path, I'm wondering if you had the STAR and Approach set correctly in your FMC)
Yes the STAR was correct for runway 25L. But come to think of it, Kerky was way passed 25L and I thought it was for 07R so I then changed the route in the FMC to go direct to 25L.
But I did the flight again and just went all the way to Kerky and got then vectored all around the airport going back to 25L. Strange because you actually crossing the take-off flight path of 25L. But even then I had to use the speedbrakes and VS to get down quickly enough so to be able to land.

Cheers,
Luc
Author:  SkyCamel [ Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
Martin,
to clarify my previous post I've attached what I think is the debug_monitor of the EDDH-EBBR flight which I redid yesterday.
As I can't read the debug file I'm just guessing.
I find it very annoying I can't read my own log file. I'm sure Dave has good reasons for that but I never experienced this with other add-on's I own.
So the only way to find out what went wrong is to get my stupid mistakes exposed to the whole forum to see, even sometimes I might be wrong in my comments because so many things go on while landing the plane that I just "forget". So the only solution is to do the walk of shame.
Again I'm pretty sure that I had to cross the runway path 25l while landing but it could be I actually turned before and was flying backwards parallel to 25L.
(like in your test flight)
I had a quick look at your write-up, very interesting, thank you so much. It clarify some things for me and I have some comments but as I said, grounded, I'm already pushing the envelope replying :cry: :)
Enjoy you end of year celebrations!
Luc
Author:  SkyCamel [ Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
Hi Martin,
so I went through your write-up, thank you for that. I have some remarks/questions.
- Point 2 "Start MSFS, set-up the flight by loading the full SB flight plan". Do you actually load the flight plan into MSFS? I never do that.
- Point 1.c For a while I used to do that too but I stopped doing this because I often got "waypoint to far out" either from arrival or departure.
But looking at your slides I noticed something I didn't pay attention to before, namely "SIDs active STARs active" being selected.
I didn't do that so I'm assuming by doing this, PF3 would not check the distance from the last waypoint to the airport when using SID or STAR?
So when trying out the flight again I did load the Nonproc FP into PF3 and selected SIDs active and STARs active.
I did three trial runs and all of them I couldn't make it down in time. But I have to look into the operation of the FMC because I must do something wrong which makes it descend slower or too late. If you can do it with the PMDG than there's no reason why it shouldn't work with my FBW.
Attached you'll find my fourth trial which ended in disaster. But his was all on me, I really made a mess during approach and I will explain what happened.
Even if what wentt wrong is totally on me, I attache the debug monitor as something strange happened at the end.

So I started my flight, did all the setup but I followed your advice and I didn't put the RWY or SID into the FMC until I got taxi instructions to the active runway. After that I put in the RWY and off we go. No issues. BTW this time I used the latest beta.
Towards the end of the flight I got clearance to go down 2000' I think. But then again I was flying for a long while at the same FL
So as said before, this time I also didn't put in the arrival RWY or STAR into the FMC. Of course I had the RWY and STAR handy as I prepared the flight with SB. I think 2-3 miles before or after the last wayppoint WOODY I got the RWY assigned, namely 19. Ohh, there it all went wrong.
I was not prepared to get another runway assigned as the previous three trial runs I always got my RWY 25L as in my FP.
Now it's totally normal to get another RWY assigned than in your FP, just like in real live, but I don't have any charts but I'm using LittleNavMap where I can also look up procedures. Unfortunately the STAR are not listed per RWY but by STAR name. So I was struggling to get the right procedure for RWY19 while continuing flying from WOODY in the same heading as I was flying. So yes, I'm sure it took me minutes trying to find the STAR and just continued flying and flying ... So just when I thought I figured out what STAR to use I got instructed by ATC to go ahead to land at 25L as filed. Say what??
Obviously I couldn't use the STAR I had planned for 25L as I was already way of course. So I then decided to give up and end the flight.

As stated, this was totally on me, just couldn't figure out how to go about with the different RWY assigned.
I do have a remark/question. It's my feeling that I got the RWY assigned way too late. I was already at my last waypoint (or past it) before proceeding with my STAR so if I then have to start looking for a new STAR or even only then start programming my FMC even if I already have the RWY and STAR in my FP then it is really struggling to do that in a timely manner. So my question, shouldn't I have gotten clearance to the RWY earlier so to give me time to adjust my FP?
I have a similar remark at the departure airport. I only get the RWY assigned when I notified I was "ready to taxi". But the push back direction is not alway clear so it would be useful to get the RWY assigned before or with the push back instruction. I know listening to ATIS will give you the RWY in use, but occasionally I got an other RWY assigned than the one who as active 10 minutes before (which of course is nothing wrong with it)
Looking forward to your insights.
Cheers,
Luc
Author:  Dave March [ Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
Thanks for the log file Luc, could you possibly attach the old_debug log also please
Author:  SkyCamel [ Thu Dec 28, 2023 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
Here you go, only hope it's the correct one, I've been fooling around the last few days so I don't remember if I started PF3 again after this flight.
Cheers,
Luc
Author:  pointy56 [ Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PF3 never ever gets TOD and descend path correct.
SkyCamel wrote: *  Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:00 am
- Point 2 "Start MSFS, set-up the flight by loading the full SB flight plan". Do you actually load the flight plan into MSFS? I never do that.
That's me being lazy - you only need to set the departure airport and initial location, usually a gate.
(I've noticed in the documentation for the FBW A32nx that it specifically says don't set a destination otherwise you won't be able to load the FMC)
SkyCamel wrote: *  Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:00 am
- Point 1.c For a while I used to do that too but I stopped doing this because I often got "waypoint to far out" either from arrival or departure.
But looking at your slides I noticed something I didn't pay attention to before, namely "SIDs active STARs active" being selected.
I didn't do that so I'm assuming by doing this, PF3 would not check the distance from the last waypoint to the airport when using SID or STAR?
So when trying out the flight again I did load the Nonproc FP into PF3 and selected SIDs active and STARs active.
Yes, you need to set SIDs and STARs active so that PF3 knows that you are using a SID and STAR and it won't vector you on departure or arrival.

I think that one of the reasons that you are having difficulties is that you need to follow the STAR with an Approach to the relevant runway.
If you look at the chart I provided for the WODY4B STAR you will see that it only takes you as far as KERKY; you then need to select an appropriate Approach for your chosen runway - I also provided a chart for the ILS Z Rwy 25L approach, which shows the path to be taken from KERKY to GIKNU via BRUNO (BUN). This is what I had programmed into the 737 FMC for the test flight that I documented - I had to select ILS Z 25L, transition KERKY.

Regarding the 'runway in use' for the destination airport, you can always use hotkey '2' when connected to Center/Control ATC to request the ATIS for your destination - I usually do this before I start to descend, the majority of the time this will be correct (but it can change).
Then in Little Navmap it is probably easiest to work back from the runway via the approach to find the correct STAR for your arrival.

In the case of EBBR 25L there is a choice of 2 approaches, ILS-Y 25L and ILS-Z 25L; if you expand them you will see that each has one or more 'transitions', but ILS-Y 25L comes in from the wrong direction, so you need to choose ILS-Z 25L. You then have a choice of a transition via either KERKY or ANT. You will see that all of the STARs say 'STAR All', so are not restricted to a particular runway; the 2 named WODYxx use an initial fix at WOODY. WODY4B is via KERKY, WODY8A is via ANT - so you just need to choose a STAR and a transition that match.
(This example is specific to EBBR 25L, but a similar principle should work for most other destinations)

Hope this helps,
Martin
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