OnCourse Software

massimo390 wrote: *

Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:30 pm

vololiberista wrote: *

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:26 pm

massimo390 wrote: *

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:37 pm

I think the program should warn the user and reject that action. Same for other user misakes.

It need be only covered in the user manual. It isn't a mistake as you put it (in fact quite the opposite it is intentional). Nor is it a bug.

I think you misunderstood my comments, I did not mentioned a program bug or mistake, I said "user mistake". So if we set anything that will lead to an unusual or unexpected behavior the program should warn us or even reject that setting, flight plan, etc. This way any user even newbie can have a better experience from day 1.

vololiberista wrote: *

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:30 pm

Well PF3 already has the option to prompt if wypts are too close. Which you can you turn on or off if you wish. In my fpl it isn't a "user mistake" and it works. Real flightplanning is very much a black art and one does not rely on software that "generates" a fpl. Many simmers are led to believe that becausethey have spent lots of money on a fpl programme that it must somehow be pukka. This is not the case at all. And it is a very steep learning curve to understand how it all works. Likewise ATC. The majority of simmers don't have an RT licence. It comes as a surprise to learn that in many European countries a pilot must pass the RT exam with 100%. Both the UK and Italian CAA's request a review if a pilot fails the RT exam to the point that the pilot training could be stopped by the authority.
What you describe is a "potential" mistake by the user. It really doesn't need PF3 to hold that user's hand. All the user needs to to do is adjust the fpl by adding a wypt or moving a wypt further away. Especially bearing in mind that the majority of fpls generated for sim use are wrong anyway!!

Quote:

Waypoints too close as I understand in PF3 can have weird results.

Quote:

So, you should fix that.

Quote:

If I pilot and ATC can deal with close waypoints why your software can't?

Quote:

This way PF3 would internally remove the necessary waypoints

Quote:

In real life we don't have to make 2 different flight plans, one for ATC and one for the MCDU as with PF3 (virtual ATC).

Quote:

This way PF3 would internally remove the necessary waypoints

vololiberista wrote: *

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:32 pm

Quote:

In real life we don't have to make 2 different flight plans, one for ATC and one for the MCDU as with PF3 (virtual ATC).

Quote:

Quote:

That is actually quite rare now with PF3

If I want radar vectors on destination I understand according to Dave advise that the last waypoint should be at least 20 miles out otherwise PF3 will start my descend too late or worse. In that case any further waypoints have to be deleted for the pf3 flight plan. I need them though for the MCDU f/p. Many times this is the case and I have to keep 2 different f/p.

.

Quote:

Real ATC use real people "allegedly" who know the fine detail of the local area

I got your point, that would be too hard to do. Maybe a walkaround would be for pf3 to read the terrain information of the airport sorrounding area and vector accordingly at least to avoid CFIT or triggering the EGPWS.

Quote:

flight planning programmes availabe for sim use have very basic algorithms and are frequently wrong thus requiring a significant amount of human oversight. But that is half the fun isn't it! (doing what real pilots have to do, i.e. check the fpl for accuracy).

Completely agree on this

Quote:

Another forte of PF3 is that it doesn't use the Microsoft game cheat that some other ATC add-ons use. That of vectoring in and around high terrain. It can't be done in real life due to line of sight of radar microwaves and VHF radio waves. In fact I don't believe that the other add-ons that do do it take account of MVA in N. America. That is a published "Minimum Vector Altitude" for airport approaches which is always significantly above the highest point of the terrain!!

I see your point and agree. But still I think is good to have this capability just to avoid being vectored CFIT. Maybe as a last resource in case you haven't set a STAR or minimum safe final app min altitude.

dmarch wrote: *

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:16 pm

Quote:

Waypoints too close as I understand in PF3 can have weird results.

'Can' yes, it's a precautionary message.

Quote:

So, you should fix that.

There's nothing to fix, it isn't a bug"

Quote:

If I pilot and ATC can deal with close waypoints why your software can't?

As you say, ATC humans are smart (hopefully). Software is not! It's dumb!! Besides, it's not that the software can't handle waypoints that are too close together it can and it does but, it all depends really who's flying the aircraft if your waypoints are too close together. An experienced RW pilot and probably most sim pilots will handle such things without any problem. Your FMC will also have no issues. But we have to deal with a lot of other users too, some may be novices and for them if waypoints are too close and they are manually handling the aircraft they could, and I say 'could' have problems. Hence the warning.

Quote:

This way PF3 would internally remove the necessary waypoints

No, no, no! We don't want to go down that route. Earlier versions of PFE used to remove wayppoints... well it was PF2000 actually, and that caused no end of issues and disgruntled users. PF3 uses whatever you put into the FP, period!

Quote:

I see your point and agree. But still I think is good to have this capability just to avoid being vectored CFIT. Maybe as a last resource in case you haven't set a STAR or minimum safe final app min altitude.

vololiberista wrote: *

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:28 pm

Quote:

I see your point and agree. But still I think is good to have this capability just to avoid being vectored CFIT. Maybe as a last resource in case you haven't set a STAR or minimum safe final app min altitude.

All you have to do is to ensure that the approach phase of your fpl does not go any lower than the FAF (which will never be lower than the lowest MSA) which you can enter in the SID/STAR page after entering the four letter ICAO code.