OnCourse Software

A320Flyer wrote: *

Fri Mar 22, 2024 12:21 pm

For example, if flying in the USA where STARS are very long, you are unlikely (I think) to be in contact with Approach at the start of the STAR.

Correct. At your STAR entry waypoint, you are cleared by Center to continue via the STAR. You will not be handed to Approach until later. When you reach your last waypoint you will either start getting vectors or be cleared to fly the approach at your discretion.

Please do try setting your STAR to begin at a waypoint other than the last waypoint. The ST really shouldn't be used at the last waypoint. Let us know how you get on.

I have no problem with flights where my STAR entry point is the final waypoint, this is my normal set-up.

Yesterday, as an experiment, I took a flight from Halifax NS (CYHZ) to Boston (KBOS) - here's how the flight plan was loaded into PF3:
waypoint.0=CYHZ, A, N44* 52.46',W63* 30.36',+000477.00
waypoint.1=Manual, I, N44* 49.19',W63* 34.25',+002117.68 - SID exit
waypoint.2=SENVI, I, N44* 44.00',W64* 9.56',+010568.57
waypoint.3=VIGMA, I, N44* 20.27',W66* 38.36',+033000.00
waypoint.4=ALLEX, I, N44* 25.00',W67* 0.00',+033000.00
waypoint.5=AJJAY, I, N43* 43.40',W69* 36.08',+033000.00 - STAR entry
waypoint.6=KBOS, A, N42* 21.46',W71* 0.23',+000019.00

I chose the OOSHN5 STAR with transition AJJAY, a waypoint some 100nm from KBOS (as the crow flies) - I was handed to Approach at AJJAY:
'Air Canada 123 descend via the Sierra Tango Approach to 3 thousand on 1013 contact Tower on 124.72 when established. expect runway 33 left '
'descend via the Sierra Tango Approach to 3 thousand contact Tower on 124.72 when established. expect runway 33 left Air Canada 123 '

Some time later, having followed the STAR approach:
'Tower Air Canada 123 at 10 miles to the southeast at 3 thousand landing '
'Air Canada 123 continue Approach you're number 1 for landing '
'continue Approach number 1 for landing Air Canada 123 '
'Air Canada 123 winds 010 at 13 altimeter is 1008 cleared to land runway 33 left '
'cleared to land runway 33 left Air Canada 123 '

@Dan77: Please let me know if I've misunderstood what you are saying; Dave confirms that handover to Approach will take place at the final waypoint. If you require vectors then it definitely needs to be a reasonable distance from the Final Approach Fix; but in my experience it can always be the STAR entry point.

Martin

Hi Martin,

Glad to know that it will work, but being handed to Approach 100 miles out is not realistic. I think the last waypoint should be closer in any event.

Perhaps someone can review Bill's log and see what happened; he never got a handoff to Approach as far as I can tell.

Hi Dan,

Yes, I did wonder about that when I was setting up the trial flight - I know that there has been discussion in the forum previously about the distances involved in approach procedures in the US, which is one reason why I chose this particular route.
I used the Flight Plan Filter feature to load this FP, as I also wanted to confirm that the SID/STAR would be handled as expected - and it was.

I'm not familiar with procedures in the US, but I'm assuming that it would be more realistic if OOSHN (~37nm from KBOS) had been marked as the STAR entry point rather than AJJAY. I'll give that a go when I have a few minutes.

Thanks,
Martin

pointy56 wrote: *

Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:29 am

I'm not familiar with procedures in the US, but I'm assuming that it would be more realistic if OOSHN (~37nm from KBOS) had been marked as the STAR entry point rather than AJJAY.

I think the best way to set that up is mark AJJAY as the STAR entry point (which it is) and use OOSHN as the last waypoint, which is where the handoff to Approach will take place (typically within about 50 nm of the airport). At OOSHN, vectoring begins or clearance is issued for approach at pilot's discretion.

Sorry we seem to have hijacked Bill's thread and not addressed his original question

Dan77 wrote: *

Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:08 am

Perhaps someone can review Bill's log and see what happened; he never got a handoff to Approach as far as I can tell.

OK, I've taken a look at Bill's log and can see that the COM frequency was changed from 118.25 to 124.5 just before WP 7 (MRM) so PF3 lost contact.
Don't know why this happened, but it's possible that MSFS assistance is turned on and caused the switch - possibly worth checking.

Cheers,
Martin

Dan77 wrote: *

Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:46 am

I think the best way to set that up is mark AJJAY as the STAR entry point (which it is) and use OOSHN as the last waypoint, which is where the handoff to Approach will take place (typically within about 50 nm of the airport). At OOSHN, vectoring begins or clearance is issued for approach at pilot's discretion.

Ooh, that's an interesting idea - I think I'll give that a try instead, thanks Dan.

And 'Yes', sorry to have hijacked Bill's thread, but hopefully my previous reply covers why he had his problem.

Martin

Sorry I've not responded but I didn't realise that grandpa duties this weekend included a two-night sleepover. Anyway, the little darlings have gone home and I've manage a couple of short flights to test things out.

My STAR approach worked fine when I ticked the Activate STAR checkbox and I got cleared to finals and VCP contacted Tower when established all as it should do.

I don't have MSFS Assistance enabled so cant explain the frequency change on my earlier flight. In any event, all seems ok now.

Thanks for all the help. I'm happy the thread got hijacked as I've learned a lot from it.

Cheers
Bill

pointy56 wrote: *

Sun Mar 24, 2024 12:00 pm

Dan77 wrote: *

Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:46 am

I think the best way to set that up is mark AJJAY as the STAR entry point (which it is) and use OOSHN as the last waypoint, which is where the handoff to Approach will take place (typically within about 50 nm of the airport). At OOSHN, vectoring begins or clearance is issued for approach at pilot's discretion.

Ooh, that's an interesting idea - I think I'll give that a try instead, thanks Dan.

I gave that suggestion a try and it worked really well - thank you Dan! And it's given me a few more ideas too.

Cheers,
Martin

pointy56 wrote: *

Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:18 pm

I gave that suggestion a try and it worked really well - thank you Dan! And it's given me a few more ideas too.

Hi Martin,

I'm glad the setup worked well. Hopefully there is a way to adapt the FP filter so it will work better with U.S. and Canadian flight plans, where the SID/STAR transition can be hundreds of miles from the airport. Maybe the filter can be configured to only remove waypoints that are less than 50 miles from the airport, when a SID or STAR waypoint is set. This would allow you to start your STAR at AJJAY, for example, without removing all the STAR waypoints, and the handoff to Approach would happen closer to the airport. If the SID or STAR is short, the filter would work as it does now.