OnCourse Software

RALF9636 wrote: *

Sat May 13, 2017 6:04 pm

There is already a wishlist entry on the Beta Forum to get the expected runway at the start of the STAR.

I think that the sooner will PF3 try to estimate the active runway, the more difficult it will get. Also, the sim itself is often not able to determine the active runway(s) correctly. My proposal is to have the option to set the landing runway proactively, anytime during the flight. This could be done in the same way it is now possible to request a different runway after it is assigned, but without any related ATC communication.

vololiberista wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 7:48 am

Supposing some of the published SID route is still to be flown then having reached the SID ceiling ATC can clear me to continue my climb and you can, subject to restrictions such as not to overfly a built-up area can request "direct to" even though you are technically still flying the SID.

Does the PF3's instruction 'resume own navigation' represent the "direct to" clearance or just provides the possibility to ask for it?

sbsim wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 1:01 pm

vololiberista wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 7:48 am

Supposing some of the published SID route is still to be flown then having reached the SID ceiling ATC can clear me to continue my climb and you can, subject to restrictions such as not to overfly a built-up area can request "direct to" even though you are technically still flying the SID.

Does the PF3's instruction 'resume own navigation' represent the "direct to" clearance or just provides the possibility to ask for it?

The latter. All it is, is permission to continue navigation according to your on board system , eg. Inertial navigation etc. The SID in many cases is likely to have been programmed into one's INS or FMC. So you would continue with that routing or you are now free to ask for "direct to" if appropriateIn this oft quoted example I am not allowed to overfly Venice so I have to continue with the ROKIB 6J route.

However, departing from Gatwick EGKK across the Channel once at FL60 I could ask for "direct to" to avoid the dog leg of BOGNA mid channel.

Thank you for the explanation!

RALF9636 wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 6:57 am

massimo390 wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 5:31 am

Just to clarify:

From the Pilot Controller Glossary:
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION− Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored

PF3 is using Approach controllers to tell you that you take full responsibility of your navigation in radar control areas under IFR. That is INCORRECT. They can't do that unless they radar fails or you are under VFR rules.

This is also already under discussion in the beta forum.

Regarding the descent: If ATC does not descend you in time you can just press L+9 as often as you need.

Thanks Ralf

Dan77 wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 10:19 am

Sorry I haven't read everything in the thread but if you are consistently being descended too late you may want to post a log. Sometimes tweaking the flight plan can make a difference.

I will try to decrease my descend vertical speed in the performance settings (A320). Maybe it is too high. Also will check the flight plans for waypoint altitudes. The request for descend is very common in real life I used to fly to San Juan in real life for many years and they either forgot to descend you on time or they descend you too early of course they try to accommodate everybody and maintain safe separation of all traffic which is the main goal. You might consider it in the future. But I am not sure if PF3 is aware of the location of the surrounding AI traffic. I was vectored today by PF3 for ILS 28L in KFLL with 4 airplanes on final and I had an RA on final because PF3 directed me directly across some traffic on final which were at the same altitude, instead of vectoring me behind them at a safe distance. It was fun to see all this traffic so close and all the warnings, I had to disengage the Autopilot to maneuver and avoid collisions, then I did a missed approach and PF3 vectored me to the south across all the traffic on final to runway 27 in KMIA which is a nearby airport, again I had another RA and PF3 said nothing, then after I crossed all that traffic was vectored back to the north.

I think this program is awesome for the potential it has. You guys just have to take full control of AI and this will be the best add on for P3D.

I am using UTLive for AI. Its a great combination with PF3.


Regards.

vololiberista wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 7:48 am

massimo390 wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 5:31 am

Just to clarify:

From the Pilot Controller Glossary:
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION− Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored

PF3 is using Approach controllers to tell you that you take full responsibility of your navigation in radar control areas under IFR. That is INCORRECT. They can't do that unless they radar fails or you are under VFR rules.

It also can be used if I "complete" the SID before the end. For example if the SID ceiling is FL140 and I attain that altitude before the end of the SID (which is more often than not nowadays as the ceiling is usually a minimum requireiment). Supposing some of the published SID route is still to be flown then having reached the SID ceiling ATC can clear me to continue my climb and you can, subject to restrictions such as not to overfly a built-up area can request "direct to" even though you are technically still flying the SID. Except that once above the SID ceiling the SID no longer applies other than the reason I have stated.
Where "Resume own navigation" in PF3 is definately not correct is at the end of a STAR when it gives that call in order to let me fly to the ILS.

There are and always will be "grey" areas due to the limitations of the voice set. Fortunately in the majority of cases all that needs to be done is to eliminate some ATC calls altogether and that is what we are looking at and discussing in the beta.

The reason for SIDs are not to reach an altitude safely, but to increase Controllers performance under busy areas. The SID increases dramatically the capability to control more traffic by one controller. For that reason you have to fly the SID, if they give you a shortcut, it only means they are not busy enough which is good for both

massimo390 wrote: *

Mon May 15, 2017 4:06 am

vololiberista wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 7:48 am

massimo390 wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 5:31 am

Just to clarify:

From the Pilot Controller Glossary:
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION− Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored

PF3 is using Approach controllers to tell you that you take full responsibility of your navigation in radar control areas under IFR. That is INCORRECT. They can't do that unless they radar fails or you are under VFR rules.

It also can be used if I "complete" the SID before the end. For example if the SID ceiling is FL140 and I attain that altitude before the end of the SID (which is more often than not nowadays as the ceiling is usually a minimum requireiment). Supposing some of the published SID route is still to be flown then having reached the SID ceiling ATC can clear me to continue my climb and you can, subject to restrictions such as not to overfly a built-up area can request "direct to" even though you are technically still flying the SID. Except that once above the SID ceiling the SID no longer applies other than the reason I have stated.
Where "Resume own navigation" in PF3 is definately not correct is at the end of a STAR when it gives that call in order to let me fly to the ILS.

There are and always will be "grey" areas due to the limitations of the voice set. Fortunately in the majority of cases all that needs to be done is to eliminate some ATC calls altogether and that is what we are looking at and discussing in the beta.

The reason for SIDs are not to reach an altitude safely, but to increase Controllers performance under busy areas. The SID increases dramatically the capability to control more traffic by one controller. For that reason you have to fly the SID, if they give you a shortcut, it only means they are not busy enough which is good for both

The altitude constraint is just one of the many restrictions of a SID. Having said that ATC will clear you to climb to your cruise or step at the point you reach the constraint or they will keep you there for a while. The SID ceiling is just that! Above it there is no SID in effect. Which is why you can either continue or ask for a Direct or ask for a deviation due to weather. As for the magnitude of traffic bear in mind that the sim AI is rarely if ever at the same level as in real life. Think about London Heathrow's operating capacity. I would have to have so much AI running that I would probably end up with 1 frame per week!
So PF3's "release" as it were represents a situation of not a heavy amount of traffic. In any case you can decide to continue flying the SID or ask for a direct. Both cases are realistic. PF3 gives you both options as it were.

vololiberista wrote: *

Mon May 15, 2017 8:17 am

massimo390 wrote: *

Mon May 15, 2017 4:06 am

vololiberista wrote: *

Sun May 14, 2017 7:48 am

It also can be used if I "complete" the SID before the end. For example if the SID ceiling is FL140 and I attain that altitude before the end of the SID (which is more often than not nowadays as the ceiling is usually a minimum requireiment). Supposing some of the published SID route is still to be flown then having reached the SID ceiling ATC can clear me to continue my climb and you can, subject to restrictions such as not to overfly a built-up area can request "direct to" even though you are technically still flying the SID. Except that once above the SID ceiling the SID no longer applies other than the reason I have stated.
Where "Resume own navigation" in PF3 is definately not correct is at the end of a STAR when it gives that call in order to let me fly to the ILS.

There are and always will be "grey" areas due to the limitations of the voice set. Fortunately in the majority of cases all that needs to be done is to eliminate some ATC calls altogether and that is what we are looking at and discussing in the beta.

The reason for SIDs are not to reach an altitude safely, but to increase Controllers performance under busy areas. The SID increases dramatically the capability to control more traffic by one controller. For that reason you have to fly the SID, if they give you a shortcut, it only means they are not busy enough which is good for both

The altitude constraint is just one of the many restrictions of a SID. Having said that ATC will clear you to climb to your cruise or step at the point you reach the constraint or they will keep you there for a while. The SID ceiling is just that! Above it there is no SID in effect. Which is why you can either continue or ask for a Direct or ask for a deviation due to weather. As for the magnitude of traffic bear in mind that the sim AI is rarely if ever at the same level as in real life. Think about London Heathrow's operating capacity. I would have to have so much AI running that I would probably end up with 1 frame per week!
So PF3's "release" as it were represents a situation of not a heavy amount of traffic. In any case you can decide to continue flying the SID or ask for a direct. Both cases are realistic. PF3 gives you both options as it were.

"... The SID ceiling is just that! Above it there is no SID in effect. Which is why you .."
Yes you are right I agree with the first part, of course Obstacle Clearance is the main goal, based on the TERPS obstacle clearance assessment is basically de ODP part of the DP, so far so good, but this is not the only reason for a SID, there are two more reasons which are Flow Management and Noise Abatement procedures. These or any of theses two may be the only reason for designing a DP (SID). Reaching the obstacle clearance assessment altitude does not mean there is no SID in effect above it as you say. You still might have to fly the SID for NA reasons or traffic flow management. Unless ... they accept you a shortcut. Well you always can try, but as I said, if they are busy, the chances get low. A good example is Boston Logan, ODP assessment is very easy and quick, in other words, you have just the city and the sea, but most DPs there are designed for Nose Abatement so you have to comply no matter your altitude and if they get really busy, the just forget it. All you will hear is climb via SID! Of course if you reach certain level NA may not be a factor anymore but don't forget flow management.