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Heading Nag on approach

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bobsk8
Post subject: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:36 am
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How can I stop repeated instructions for me to be on a a certain heading on approach to an airport, when I am already on that heading, exactly? Is there a setting in PF3 where no heading instructions are given? Last night I finally gave up, and just shut PF3 down.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:05 am
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bobsk8 wrote: *  Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:36 am
How can I stop repeated instructions for me to be on a a certain heading on approach to an airport, when I am already on that heading, exactly?
This should not happen, please provide logs so we can track down the reason.
Can you confirm that this is not a difference between true and magnetic heading? PF3 wants you to fly the true heading, and I think it is happy if you are within ±5° of it.
bobsk8 wrote: *  Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:36 am
Is there a setting in PF3 where no heading instructions are given? Last night I finally gave up, and just shut PF3 down.
Yes, either enable the STAR option (which is not only for STARs, but for any other procedures where you decide the path to the FAF, too) or request cleared to finals at pilot's discretion.

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dtsakiris
Post subject: Re: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:06 am
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bobsk8 wrote: *  Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:36 am
How can I stop repeated instructions for me to be on a a certain heading on approach to an airport, when I am already on that heading, exactly? Is there a setting in PF3 where no heading instructions are given? Last night I finally gave up, and just shut PF3 down.
I believe I had the same problem last night. EDDH DCT WSN UN125 EEL UZ305 SUPUR UL60 OTBED ROSU1F EGCC. In PF3, the STAR was defined as beginning at OTBED. After the last STAR waypoint ROSUN I was given vectors. Active was 23L, I requested 23R. So far, so good. If memory serves correctly, I was supposed to fly heading 195 (to capture the LOC), with I did according to my instruments, but got constant ATC nagging I wasn't. Because of the nagging, I assume approach didn't hand me over to tower, which I then did manually.

Will upload logs, though it may take a day or two.
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bobsk8
Post subject: Re: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:24 pm
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ThomasAH wrote: *  Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:05 am
bobsk8 wrote: *  Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:36 am
How can I stop repeated instructions for me to be on a a certain heading on approach to an airport, when I am already on that heading, exactly?
This should not happen, please provide logs so we can track down the reason.
Can you confirm that this is not a difference between true and magnetic heading? PF3 wants you to fly the true heading, and I think it is happy if you are within ±5° of it.
bobsk8 wrote: *  Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:36 am
Is there a setting in PF3 where no heading instructions are given? Last night I finally gave up, and just shut PF3 down.
Yes, either enable the STAR option (which is not only for STARs, but for any other procedures where you decide the path to the FAF, too) or request cleared to finals at pilot's discretion.

Attachments
debug_monitor.zip
(561.22 KiB) Downloaded 178 times

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:06 pm
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You turned to 75 for some seconds, but then settled down at 68:
Code: Select all
4/26/2017 8:47:37 PM: 830 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 Turn left heading 075  '
4/26/2017 8:47:47 PM: 670 - Ulat: 51.0955738524519 ULon: 2.63984270580043 UHdg: 87 UAlt: 2965 UIAS=129 UGS=121 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:47:51 PM: 880 - Ulat: 51.0954139453312 ULon: 2.64383454100688 UHdg: 84 UAlt: 2965 UIAS=129 UGS=120 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:47:55 PM: 940 - Ulat: 51.095505221565 ULon: 2.64764814863637 UHdg: 76 UAlt: 2961 UIAS=129 UGS=118 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:48:00 PM: 250 - Ulat: 51.0959616432983 ULon: 2.65150921129409 UHdg: 67 UAlt: 2958 UIAS=129 UGS=115 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:48:04 PM: 040 - Ulat: 51.0966919425671 ULon: 2.65474131823128 UHdg: 59 UAlt: 2955 UIAS=129 UGS=113 TOD: 0 OTG=False
...
4/26/2017 8:49:29 PM: 510 - Ulat: 51.1094079641745 ULon: 2.72913286158832 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2958 UIAS=126 UGS=113 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:49:29 PM: 620 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 continue your Turn to Heading 075  '
4/26/2017 8:49:39 PM: 700 - Ulat: 51.1108344312521 ULon: 2.73790750267849 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2955 UIAS=125 UGS=112 TOD: 0 OTG=False
...
4/26/2017 8:50:43 PM: 020 - Ulat: 51.1198211362415 ULon: 2.79196362968743 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2955 UIAS=125 UGS=112 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:50:43 PM: 120 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 continue your Turn to Heading 075  '
4/26/2017 8:50:52 PM: 910 - Ulat: 51.1211656754043 ULon: 2.80042901559085 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2951 UIAS=125 UGS=112 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:51:53 PM: 040 - Ulat: 51.1294111519124 ULon: 2.8520734432232 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2958 UIAS=126 UGS=113 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:51:53 PM: 110 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 continue your Turn to Heading 075  '
4/26/2017 8:52:03 PM: 340 - Ulat: 51.1308319006861 ULon: 2.86094864500949 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2958 UIAS=126 UGS=113 TOD: 0 OTG=False
...
4/26/2017 8:53:03 PM: 520 - Ulat: 51.1395491161929 ULon: 2.9131406624206 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2965 UIAS=127 UGS=114 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:53:03 PM: 700 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 continue your Turn to Heading 075  '
4/26/2017 8:53:13 PM: 520 - Ulat: 51.1410164790904 ULon: 2.92185222577522 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2965 UIAS=127 UGS=114 TOD: 0 OTG=False
...
4/26/2017 8:54:15 PM: 050 - Ulat: 51.1497180452177 ULon: 2.97597971492876 UHdg: 69 UAlt: 2965 UIAS=129 UGS=116 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:54:15 PM: 150 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 continue your Turn to Heading 075  '
4/26/2017 8:54:25 PM: 410 - Ulat: 51.1511816276484 ULon: 2.98512509422911 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2965 UIAS=129 UGS=116 TOD: 0 OTG=False
...
4/26/2017 8:55:25 PM: 030 - Ulat: 51.1599227497515 ULon: 3.03756395330557 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2955 UIAS=126 UGS=114 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:55:25 PM: 150 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 continue your Turn to Heading 075  '
4/26/2017 8:55:35 PM: 550 - Ulat: 51.1613876720664 ULon: 3.04669297461665 UHdg: 69 UAlt: 2951 UIAS=126 UGS=113 TOD: 0 OTG=False
...
4/26/2017 8:56:31 PM: 820 - Ulat: 51.1691205443138 ULon: 3.09517897058549 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2948 UIAS=125 UGS=112 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:56:32 PM: 990 - Transcript: 'Approach Helios 819 is with you at Flight Level 30 IFR  '
4/26/2017 8:56:41 PM: 220 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 Roger  '
4/26/2017 8:56:56 PM: 750 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 continue your Turn to Heading 075  '
4/26/2017 8:57:05 PM: 840 - Ulat: 51.1738340557449 ULon: 3.12436037781402 UHdg: 68 UAlt: 2951 UIAS=126 UGS=112 TOD: 0 OTG=False
...
4/26/2017 8:57:24 PM: 330 - Ulat: 51.1761827181262 ULon: 3.14056367144631 UHdg: 75 UAlt: 2958 UIAS=127 UGS=116 TOD: 0 OTG=False
After reaching the correct heading, you received new headings:
Code: Select all
4/26/2017 8:57:24 PM: 490 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 Turn right heading 110  '
4/26/2017 8:57:34 PM: 020 - Ulat: 51.1759355203832 ULon: 3.14964928155523 UHdg: 94 UAlt: 2951 UIAS=128 UGS=123 TOD: 0 OTG=False
...
4/26/2017 8:57:43 PM: 240 - Ulat: 51.1738596399285 ULon: 3.15811110935494 UHdg: 113 UAlt: 2951 UIAS=129 UGS=128 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:57:47 PM: 520 - Transcript: 'Roger left to 110 Helios 819  '
4/26/2017 8:57:52 PM: 860 - Ulat: 51.1709145993135 ULon: 3.16659725472069 UHdg: 107 UAlt: 2958 UIAS=128 UGS=127 TOD: 0 OTG=False
...
4/26/2017 8:59:02 PM: 520 - Ulat: 51.1535673909247 ULon: 3.22918487133989 UHdg: 106 UAlt: 2948 UIAS=125 UGS=123 TOD: 0 OTG=False
4/26/2017 8:59:02 PM: 630 - Transcript: 'Helios 819 Turn right heading 115  '
4/26/2017 8:59:12 PM: 490 - Ulat: 51.1510450710872 ULon: 3.2380564572274 UHdg: 107 UAlt: 2951 UIAS=126 UGS=124 TOD: 0 OTG=False
Again a little bit off course, more than the allowed ±5

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bobsk8
Post subject: Re: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:48 pm
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I found the problem I was having on the flight last evening. The aircraft is the A2A T-6 and has an old style Autopilot called Digitrack. It works in 2 modes, one is following a GPS course if you have one , and the other mode is you can select the ground track using heading numbers that appear in the display. If you have no crosswind, the heading and ground track are the same. If there is a cross wind, the number in the AP display is the ground track not the heading the aircraft is on. I had 75 set on the display, which was the ground track, but the heading was different because I had a wind correction component. I will have to remember this the next time I fly this aircraft.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:58 pm
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Ah, that explains it.

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dtsakiris
Post subject: Re: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 2:54 pm
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I think I may have stumbled across this again on my last flight. ATC nagged about my heading, and I checked and wasn't off by more than 5 °. Thing is: Wind was 30+ kts from the side. I'll upload the logs this evening.
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dtsakiris
Post subject: Re: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:41 pm
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Whoops, it's two days later...

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Heading Nag on approach
Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:21 pm
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dtsakiris wrote: *  Thu May 11, 2017 7:41 pm
Whoops, it's two days later...
Code: Select all
5/7/2017 2:06:32 PM: 010 - Ulat: 37.6182495202003 ULon: -77.6821444662602 UHdg: 358 UAlt: 3981 UIAS=229 UGS=259 TOD: 0 OTG=False
5/7/2017 2:06:32 PM: 290 - Transcript: 'Southwest 520 Turn right heading 085  '
5/7/2017 2:06:36 PM: 520 - Transcript: 'right to 085 Southwest 520  '
5/7/2017 2:06:44 PM: 790 - Ulat: 37.6342309483006 ULon: -77.6850713087898 UHdg: 4 UAlt: 3932 UIAS=222 UGS=253 TOD: 0 OTG=False
--
5/7/2017 2:07:36 PM: 570 - Ulat: 37.6881119723671 ULon: -77.6484846481526 UHdg: 73 UAlt: 4106 UIAS=225 UGS=242 TOD: 0 OTG=False
5/7/2017 2:07:37 PM: 100 - Transcript: 'Southwest 520 Reduce speed to 200  '
5/7/2017 2:07:41 PM: 340 - Transcript: '200 Southwest 520  '
5/7/2017 2:07:48 PM: 330 - Ulat: 37.6941266677676 ULon: -77.6327335550564 UHdg: 85 UAlt: 4126 UIAS=223 UGS=235 TOD: 0 OTG=False
Here you have the correct heading, but then:
Code: Select all
5/7/2017 2:09:05 PM: 150 - Ulat: 37.7163791599268 ULon: -77.5343405556557 UHdg: 92 UAlt: 4040 UIAS=191 UGS=200 TOD: 0 OTG=False
5/7/2017 2:09:05 PM: 380 - Transcript: 'Southwest 520 continue your Turn to Heading 085  '
5/7/2017 2:09:12 PM: 730 - Transcript: 'Roger Southwest 520  '
5/7/2017 2:09:19 PM: 320 - Ulat: 37.7202395378282 ULon: -77.5170774509808 UHdg: 94 UAlt: 3968 UIAS=196 UGS=204 TOD: 0 OTG=False
--
5/7/2017 2:10:19 PM: 980 - Ulat: 37.7062070316168 ULon: -77.4590486304732 UHdg: 179 UAlt: 4008 UIAS=187 UGS=157 TOD: 0 OTG=False
5/7/2017 2:10:20 PM: 200 - Transcript: 'Southwest 520 continue your Turn to Heading 085  '
What happened here? Heading 92 is >5 degree from 85.

With 30+ kts crosswind, did you point your aircraft's nose to 85 or did you fly in a way that your flight path is heading 85?
I must admit that I don't remember right now what PF3's ATC expects here. Dave?

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