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Not descending on approach

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pointy56
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:25 am
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I meant to mention one other thing:

I noticed a small anomaly with all of the position reports given by the VCP, the reported position isn't the waypoint position.
I'm guessing that it's giving the actual aircraft position but it appears to be a rounded down integer value; so at 49N20W, for example, the report is 49N19W - the same happens at every waypoint.
The problem with the current mechanism is that the reported position is around 40nm out (at 49 North); perhaps the 'nearest' integer value needs to be used instead, or the waypoint position?

I should perhaps say that I am enjoying getting back in to FS again after a long break; I was using PF2000 with FS2000 many years ago, and am starting to get to grips with the fantastic functionality in PF3.

Thanks,
Martin
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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:51 pm
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pointy56 wrote: *  Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:57 pm
Apologies for the delay in responding; I have tried the updated version of PF3 and have noticed a few strange things - I ended up making the same flight three times to get all of the details:

1) Handover takes place correctly at GAPLI from London Control to Shanwick Oceanic on 127.90 with SELCAL check OK - ATC requests 'Report reaching BEDRA'
2) Normal progress occurs with reports being made at waypoints BEDRA (49N50W), 4920N (49N20W), and 4925N (49N25W)
3) Something strange happens at 4930N (49N30W): VCP changes COM1 to 132.10 and calls Gander Oceanic, requesting a SELCAL check - ATC then requests 'Report reaching 4935N', the waypoint not the position.
Shortly after that ATC issues a handover 'Contact Gander Oceanic on 132.1'
4) Normal progress then occurs with reports being made at waypoints 4935N (49N35W), 4940N (49N40W) and 4945N (49N45W)
5) At waypoint 4950N (49N50W) VCP reports '48 North 51 West next'; this is incorrect as the next waypoint in the flightplan is JOOPY (48N52W) - the value of 48N51W is for an extra 'XXX' waypoint added by PF3
6) At waypoint XXX (position 16 in the FPP) no handover to the next 'Gander Oceanic' sector is made, but COM1 is changed to 132.20
7) At JOOPY (48N52W) the VCP makes a position report '46 North 58 West next'
Shortly after that ATC issues a handover 'Contact Gander Oceanic on 132.2'
8) At waypoint DAYSE (46N58W) VCP reports '46 North 58 West next'; again this is incorrect as the next waypoint in the flightplan is CAYLY (45N62W) - the value of 46N58W is for another extra 'XXX' waypoint added by PF3

There is then no further communication from ATC, at least that is what I found on my first flight.

However, on my second flight I used hotkey '0' between DAYSE and CAYLY to try to check-in (I left COM1 on 132.20) and got a response from Moncton Centre giving me a squawk ident.
I then manually changed COM1 to be 119.20; shortly after that ATC issued a handover 'Contact Moncton Centre on 119.2'.
Once I am 'talking' to Moncton Centre, ATC issues descent instructions and approach vectors for landing at Halifax.
(I had the same experience on my third flight after using hotkey '0' between DAYSE and CAYLY, but stopped the flight after the first descent instruction)

I'm attaching the flight plan and logs from the third flight - I hope that they give you what you need to look into this further.
Happy to try again, it just takes a little while to make a six hour flight, even when I accelerate the boring bits!

Regards,
Martin
Thanks for the detailed feedback... it may take me a day or so to look into this further and get back to you. If you don't hear anything please do give me a nudge... sometimes I just forget! :shock:

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
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pointy56
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:06 pm
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A gentle nudge ...
I have time for more flying this weekend as no home international rugby matches to watch ;)

Martin
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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:35 pm
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Sorry for the late reply

3. You should NOT have received a handoff during Oceanic Procedures... this has been fixed ready for the next release

5. Report 48 N 51 W next is correct. The XXX waypoint marks where Gander Oceanic frequency changes from 132.10 to 132.20

6. See my first answer. You should NEVER get a handover once under Oceanic Procedures. You are not under ATC control. You are not being monitored. No one can see you.

7. The handoff is a bug and has now been addressed

8. Ditto #5

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
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pointy56
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:47 pm
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Hi Dave, many thanks for this.

I guess I have a couple of questions, relating to oceanic procedures in general:

If there is no handover between zones, how does one know to switch frequencies from Swanwick (127.90) to Gander (132.10) and then from Gander (132.10) to Gander (132.20)?
The VCP seems to handle this in mode 2 (and 3, I assume), but do they handle the necessary frequency changes in mode 1?

Also, if it's the pilot's responsibility to check-in with ATC when leaving Oceanic airspace, how does one know when to do this and what frequency to use?
Again, will the VCP handle the frequency change in modes 1 thru 3?

Apologies if these seem basic questions but I'm trying to get to gain a better understanding, and it's not clear to me where the zone details are documented.
I do realise that I can get this information by looking at the zone map produced by PF3 once the flight plan is loaded (as you showed previously) - is that the best way?
Update: I've just taken another look at the map produced by the JSON file, and it shows the boundaries of the various control zones, but not the frequencies - that's in the FPP file.

Thanks,
Martin
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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:40 pm
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I guess it's all about positional awareness ;)

In your FP, when you reach 4930N, which is the boundary of Shanwick and Gander you would need to contact Gander. The frequencies can be seen if using PF3_Display. If not using that then you can open the PF3_Freqs.dat file which you'll find in the PF3_Display folder which is inside your main FSX folder. But by far the best, easiest and most accurate, is to pass that task over to your VCP. If you don't want to use the VCP once leaving Oceanic there is a hotkey available to switch VCP modes.

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
...I just can't remember how it used to be!

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pointy56
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:44 pm
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I updated to 3.10.20 last night and managed to re-run the same flight today under VCP 3 - it's good news/bad news time I'm afraid:

The good news is that the VCP switched frequency from Shanwick to Gander at 4930N and reported in correctly.
The bad news is that VCP missed the XXX reporting point at 48N51W between 4950N and JOOPY - however, VCP switched frequency and reported into the new Gander sector at JOOPY.
The VCP also missed the XXX reporting point just after DAYSE - however, VCP did switch frequency and contact Moncton Centre at CAYLY.
This late call to Moncton, well after TOD, was what triggered my original bug report.

I really appreciate you looking into this, hopefully it's a simple fix - usual files in attached zip.

Regards,
Martin

Attachments
PF3-210224.zip
(2.42 MiB) Downloaded 122 times


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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:18 pm
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Hi Martin,

I don't think we have a problem here because PF3 should not be reporting at XXX waypoints as they are only for handoff boundaries and there are no such things in an oceanic flight. That is where a frequency change may occur but of course you don't have to worry about changing to that frequency until your are due to make your next position report.

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Cheers

Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
...I just can't remember how it used to be!

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pointy56
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:13 pm
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Thanks for looking into this again, I understand what you're saying about no oceanic handovers, but I'm still a bit confused.

I'm happy that the VCP used the XXX co-ordinates as reporting points, as in 'next xxNyyW', as a sector handover is due at those points.
This is the activity that I recorded at points 5 and 8 in a previous posting - you said then that the next position being given was correct.
However, the VCP then didn't make a call as those reporting points were passed, instead they waited until the next flight plan waypoint.
I'll need to re-run the flight to confirm this as I don't have that specific detail in my notes.

Apologies if I'm being tiresome, this lack of reporting at the stated 'next' point seems inconsistent to me. :?

Thanks again,
Martin
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mrfoxik
Post subject: Re: Not descending on approach
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:48 pm
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Hi pilots and dear support.
I have discovered descending problem too. VFR flight plan has last waypoint ~10NM from uncontrolled airfield and altitude for this waypoint is 3000ft. I was travelling on 7500ft under ctrl radar service and discovered that it is time to descent. PF3 missed my descending path long ago (my PF3 setup descending path is -1000ft/min) so I decided to force descend by using L-5 shotcut to ask descend to 2000 or 3000ft. Shortcut did not worked, it stucked.
When I crossed last flight plan waypoint ctrl said to contact approach which finaly said to descend but it was far far to late. L & H shortcuts started to work under approach freq.
It seems that only approach is responsible for descending and you can not change FL when under ctrl freq.
Should be like that?
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