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Why doesn't ATC want me to land?

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bobsk8
Post subject: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:26 pm
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I have run into this situation on the last couple of flights, where I should be descending to make a normal approach, yet I never seem to get some sensible descent instructions. I wind up having to use the speed brakes on the NGX, in order to get down to a normal approach altitude. Today, I decided that from now on I would insert an altitude, around 70 miles from the airport that would get me down in plenty of time, so at the waypoint Lasko I set the altitude at 12,000feet. Now I am approaching Lasko, after getting initial descent assignments of 29,000, and flying closer and closer to Lasko, contacting ATC with position reports in case they forgot about me, and finally see that I am 11 miles from Lasko and distance is closing and I am still at 29,000 feet. I check say it again, to see if I missed something, and the last communication from ATC was to descend to 29,000. I finally set the 737 for a steep descent, apply the speed brakes, and start diving for the airport. I then switch to approach, and the first comm I hear is for me to climb back to 29,000 which I ignore. Then I ask for pilots discretion approach and am cleared for the approach.

It seems that the only problem I have on occasion with PF3, is descending for a normal approach. Everything else works perfectly, but as I approach and airport, I am always wondering "what is going to happen this time", which shouldn't be. Sometimes it works, but too often, I see this problem. Can you look at the log and see if I am missing something?

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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:12 pm
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You missed waypoint #7 (the following shows you were 11 miles PAST WP #7 and heading in the general direction of WP #8 when PF3 bumped to the next waypoint)
Quote:
8/2/2018 10:48:26 AM: 840 - Dist to Waypoint #7 11.20677 miles - Dist to Waypoint #8 20.4845 miles
8/2/2018 10:48:26 AM: 840 - User must have bypassed Waypoint #7 - Jump to next Waypoint!
Then you missed waypoint #8 (the following shows you were 25 miles PAST WP #8 and heading in the general direction of WP #9 when PF3 bump to the next waypoint)
Quote:
8/2/2018 10:55:28 AM: 430 - Dist to Waypoint #8 25.07603 miles - Dist to Waypoint #9 41.21744 miles
8/2/2018 10:55:28 AM: 430 - User must have bypassed Waypoint #8 - Jump to next Waypoint!

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Dan77
Post subject: Re: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:17 pm
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In addition to what Dave said above, it looks like you were using CP Mode 1 and missed a Center check-in:
Quote:
8/2/2018 10:37:40 AM: 020 - Transcript: 'Alitalia 819 Contact ROMA CONTROL on 124.8 '
8/2/2018 10:37:48 AM: 270 - Transcript: '124.8 Alitalia 819 '
According to the log, the next use of your call sign is when you called a position report 7 minutes later:
Quote:
8/2/2018 10:44:44 AM: 100 - Transcript: 'ROMA CONTROL Alitalia 819 Position Report 11 miles from Romeo Uniform Tango Oscar Mike to the northwest at 1036 local '

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bobsk8
Post subject: Re: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:18 pm
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Dan77 wrote: *  Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:17 pm
In addition to what Dave said above, it looks like you were using CP Mode 1 and missed a Center handoff:
Quote:
8/2/2018 10:37:40 AM: 020 - Transcript: 'Alitalia 819 Contact ROMA CONTROL on 124.8 '
8/2/2018 10:37:48 AM: 270 - Transcript: '124.8 Alitalia 819 '
According to the log, the next use of your call sign is when you called a position report 7 minutes later:
Quote:
8/2/2018 10:44:44 AM: 100 - Transcript: 'ROMA CONTROL Alitalia 819 Position Report 11 miles from Romeo Uniform Tango Oscar Mike to the northwest at 1036 local '
Whoops!!!!!!! :oops: Guess I should have had the second cup of coffee this morning.

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bobsk8
Post subject: Re: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:54 pm
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OK , this happened again. I am positive ( well almost 99%) I didn't miss any communications, in fact many times as I am flying along I report position, double check frequencies and hit say it again , just to make sure . Anyway, to avoid the too high , speed brake, dive bomber approaches in the 737 which really gets the passengers and cabin attendants upset, I select a waypoint in the Star, in this case KUNAV, and changed the altitude at that waypoint to 15,000. So here we ago again, I am micro descended down to 29,000 feet in a couple of steps from cruise of FL360, and that is it. Getting closer and closer to KUNAV, still at FL290 and I can see that this is going to leave me way too high, unless I can descend 14,000 feet in a few miles. So I finally ask for lower altitude of 9,000 down when about 5 miles from Kunav. Still needed speed brakes all the way down to around 10,000 feet.

Now my question is, if I specify a certain altitude, shouldn't PF3 make sure that when I arrive at that waypont, and be fairly close to the altitude I set when I pass the waypoint? The other option of course, is to use VNAV, on the FMC, and just ask PF3 for lower altitudes when approaching the airport, and not waiting for descent instructions, which doesn't seem right.

The other thing that I notice, when requesting a lower altitude of say 9,000 feet by hitting hotkey and 9,, then PF3 gives a position report because it sees the 9 key, which seems like a minor bug. This happens everytime.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:30 pm
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bobsk8 wrote: *  Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:54 pm
The other thing that I notice, when requesting a lower altitude of say 9,000 feet by hitting hotkey and 9,, then PF3 gives a position report because it sees the 9 key, which seems like a minor bug. This happens everytime.
Let's start with the easier one:
You need to hold the hotkey, then press and release 9, then release the hotkey, i.e. the hotkey works much like a shift or ctrl modifier key here.
And for the default hotkeys ("h" and "l") you must not press ctrl+shift like for the letter-hotkeys.

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bobsk8
Post subject: Re: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:37 pm
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ThomasAH wrote: *  Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:30 pm
bobsk8 wrote: *  Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:54 pm
The other thing that I notice, when requesting a lower altitude of say 9,000 feet by hitting hotkey and 9,, then PF3 gives a position report because it sees the 9 key, which seems like a minor bug. This happens everytime.
Let's start with the easier one:
You need to hold the hotkey, then press and release 9, then release the hotkey, i.e. the hotkey works much like a shift or ctrl modifier key here.
And for the default hotkeys ("h" and "l") you must not press ctrl+shift like for the letter-hotkeys.
That is what I do every time. If you can see in the log, I switched the hotkey from L to B because it was suspected that for some reason, PF3 was ignoring the L key and the lower altitude request sometimes would not go through intermittently. That switch was before the latest update, and i haven't switched it back yet. So yes, what I do is press the ( b in my case) L key, hold it down, press the 9 key while holding L key down and release the 9 key and then release the L key. Been doing this for a couple of years. It acts as if I do all this, in that sequence, it gives me OK to descend, and after that it announces the position report, like after this sequence I had pressed the 9 key again ( which I did not do) . That to me is just a very minor issue. The problem that is bothering me is the issue of descents that are not seeming to work correctly.

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Dan77
Post subject: Re: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:11 pm
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I'm going to have to defer to Dave on the descent issue. According to the log you should have been given step descents of 28000, 19000, and 15000 on your way to KUNAV, but that did not happen and I'm not sure why.

Regarding the keys, I have no idea if it will make any difference but you might try adjusting the repeat values in your Windows keyboard settings (Control Panel). Make a note of them before you change anything so you can return to your current settings if there is no effect.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:27 pm
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bobsk8 wrote: *  Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:37 pm
ThomasAH wrote: *  Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:30 pm
bobsk8 wrote: *  Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:54 pm
The other thing that I notice, when requesting a lower altitude of say 9,000 feet by hitting hotkey and 9,, then PF3 gives a position report because it sees the 9 key, which seems like a minor bug. This happens everytime.
Let's start with the easier one:
You need to hold the hotkey, then press and release 9, then release the hotkey, i.e. the hotkey works much like a shift or ctrl modifier key here.
And for the default hotkeys ("h" and "l") you must not press ctrl+shift like for the letter-hotkeys.
That is what I do every time. If you can see in the log, I switched the hotkey from L to B because it was suspected that for some reason, PF3 was ignoring the L key and the lower altitude request sometimes would not go through intermittently. That switch was before the latest update, and i haven't switched it back yet. So yes, what I do is press the ( b in my case) L key, hold it down, press the 9 key while holding L key down and release the 9 key and then release the L key. Been doing this for a couple of years. It acts as if I do all this, in that sequence, it gives me OK to descend, and after that it announces the position report, like after this sequence I had pressed the 9 key again ( which I did not do) . That to me is just a very minor issue. The problem that is bothering me is the issue of descents that are not seeming to work correctly.
You're right:
8/4/2018 10:59:20 AM: 850 - ****** HotKey #20 detected!
8/4/2018 10:59:20 AM: 890 - Requesting altitude change of -9000' at current alt of 29986
8/4/2018 10:59:20 AM: 930 - Transcript: 'PARIS CONTROL Easy 819 Requesting Flight Level 210  '
8/4/2018 10:59:27 AM: 070 - ****** HotKey #9 detected!
8/4/2018 10:59:28 AM: 180 - Transcript: 'Roger Easy 819 Descend and maintain Flight Level 210  '
8/4/2018 10:59:36 AM: 610 - Transcript: 'PARIS CONTROL Easy 819 Position Report 9 miles from
                            Kilo Uniform November Alpha Victor to the southeast at 0950 local  '
Did you ever try using a different keyboard?
Do you use any key remapping software, e.g. something that comes with some gaming keyboards?


Regarding your original problem:
- I see that you have correctly configured the WP altitudes for the first and second STAR waypoints:
  WP21 KESAX: sWPAlt=33000
  WP22 XXX: sWPAlt=30000
  WP23 KUNAV: sWPAlt=20000 changed to: 15000
  WP24 XXX: sWPAlt=20000 changed to: 12000
You get correctly descended to FL30 for WP22, but not further until you request the lower altitude.
The distance between WP22 and WP23 is 28NM, with your ground speed of slightly below 400 knots this only takes about 4 minutes.
The aircraft profile is set to a descent rate of 1300 fpm, i.e. 5200 feet in 4 minutes.

At some point PF3 calculates a TOD distance from the airport of 170NM, which would be around WP17, while the actual descent starts at WP20:
8/4/2018 10:45:42 AM: 410 - Current Waypoint No: 17  Dest: 26  iLanding: 0 iClimb=2  Dist to next WP: 16.06293
8/4/2018 10:45:42 AM: 490 - ****** Reached TOD ******
8/4/2018 10:45:47 AM: 630 - Current Waypoint No: 17  Dest: 26  iLanding: 0 iClimb=0  Dist to next WP: 15.44083
8/4/2018 10:50:11 AM: 970 - Current Waypoint No: 20  Dest: 26  iLanding: 0 iClimb=0  Dist to next WP: 17.76259
8/4/2018 10:50:17 AM: 390 - Transcript: 'Easy 819 Descend and maintain Flight Level 330  '
8/4/2018 10:50:22 AM: 700 - Current Waypoint No: 20  Dest: 26  iLanding: 0 iClimb=0  Dist to next WP: 16.49648
8/4/2018 10:55:27 AM: 780 - Transcript: 'Easy 819 Descend to Flight Level 300  '
Dave?

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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Why doesn't ATC want me to land?
Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:31 am
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Bob,

I believe I've found the culprit causing your problems. I won't bore you with the details. I've released it to the beta guys who will hopefully be running with it as soon as possible, but it's not something they can really test, so it's more of a regression test to ensure I haven't broken the standard step climb/descents. One thing I can say is if you were using VCP mode 2 or 3 the problem wouldn't occur. Until the fix is released you just need to ensure you action any control handoffs as quickly as possible.

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Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
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