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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Hello,

I'm encountering a quite annoying issue with the latest version: I can't get the "Use Transition Alt for VFR max altitude" option, so I cannot untick it and ATC always ask for changing my VFR flight plan into VFR.
How could I solve this please?

EDIT: Just saw you changed the way it works now, however I didn't get any warning during the preflight about the altitude not being allowed for a VFR flight. The warning is only triggered if I'm making manual changes in the "Adjust altitudes" menu. If I just leave the altitude as it is on the original flight plan then no warning is displayed.
This is a bit confusing, it would be great if it could be also displayed without manual changes.

That said, it's still wrong as I was actually not flying in any airspace where VFR flying was forgiven. (Flying 8500 ft between NZQN and NZHK from NZUK)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 950
Location: LIMZ
Quote:
Hello,

I'm encountering a quite annoying issue with the latest version: I can't get the "Use Transition Alt for VFR max altitude" option, so I cannot untick it and ATC always ask for changing my VFR flight plan into VFR.
How could I solve this please?

EDIT: Just saw you changed the way it works now, however I didn't get any warning during the preflight about the altitude not being allowed for a VFR flight. The warning is only triggered if I'm making manual changes in the "Adjust altitudes" menu. If I just leave the altitude as it is on the original flight plan then no warning is displayed.
This is a bit confusing, it would be great if it could be also displayed without manual changes.

That said, it's still wrong as I was actually not flying in any airspace where VFR flying was forgiven. (Flying 8500 ft between NZQN and NZHK from NZUK)
Please zip your debug_monitor.log and the contents of your FPP directory so that we can see exactly what you were doing.
NZ is ICAO so if you are not in controlled airspace you are technically VFR. If you are in controlled airspace no matter what the transition altitude is you are technically IFR. Obviously local rules still apply but PF3 cannot map every single instance of controlled airspace. Just in the 20nm radius where I live there are about 20 different controlled airspace divisions. It would be well nigh impossible for PF3 to map all of them! So PF3 has to apply a general rule.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:05 pm 
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Hello,

Please find the debug_monitor.log file as well as my FPP folder.
I totally understand that PF3 cannot map every single airspace, but then it's not accurate and still having the option to set it to 18000 ft would be useful... I wasn't flying an IFR airplane and I had to climb at this altitude if I didn't want to see the mountains from closer.

About your statement in being techinacally IFR in a controlled airspace, in all due respect this is completely wrong.
Flying IFR/VFR and being in a controlled airspace are totally different from each other, one is flying rules while the other is the fact of being subject to ATC authorizations. You can perfectly be flying VFR in a controlled airspace, and flying IFR in an uncontrolled airspace.

In the case of my flight, I had to fly VFR at 8500 ft which was my minimum security altitude, and the ATC was always requiring IFR each few minutes, which was really annoying. Having the option again would really help in such situations.


Attachments:
debug.zip [583.25 KiB]
Downloaded 4 times

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:01 am 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 950
Location: LIMZ
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Hello,

About your statement in being techinacally IFR in a controlled airspace, in all due respect this is completely wrong.
Flying IFR/VFR and being in a controlled airspace are totally different from each other, one is flying rules while the other is the fact of being subject to ATC authorizations. You can perfectly be flying VFR in a controlled airspace, and flying IFR in an uncontrolled airspace.

I am not "completely wrong" as you put it! Because in the UK and Europe to fly VFR in controlled airspace you need PPR "Prior Permission Required." You can do that on the fly and PF3 allows that. But in practice the real ATC require/prefer the permission to by given before take-off. Once you get permission your flight is designated "Special VFR". The rules in NZ may well allow you to do it but it is not common everywhere else. In fact many countries are very restrictive. You can set 18,000ft in PF3 to be you transition altitude if you want. So in PF3 you can ignore the rules if you so wish.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:39 am 
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Posts: 850
I think if reading "technically IFR" as "CVFR" you both may be on the same page again. The ATC calls for CVFR are basically identical to IFR, so if PF3 asks you to switch to IFR, just pretend it is CVFR.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:51 am 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
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Location: LIMZ
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Please find the debug_monitor.log file as well as my FPP folder.
I totally understand that PF3 cannot map every single airspace, but then it's not accurate and still having the option to set it to 18000 ft would be useful... I wasn't flying an IFR airplane and I had to climb at this altitude if I didn't want to see the mountains from closer.
You do have that option in PF3. However, as your fpl was in NZ it is my understanding that the transition level is 13,000ft not 18. And of course you can also set it to that in PF3.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:43 pm
Posts: 27
Quote:
Quote:
Please find the debug_monitor.log file as well as my FPP folder.
I totally understand that PF3 cannot map every single airspace, but then it's not accurate and still having the option to set it to 18000 ft would be useful... I wasn't flying an IFR airplane and I had to climb at this altitude if I didn't want to see the mountains from closer.
You do have that option in PF3. However, as your fpl was in NZ it is my understanding that the transition level is 13,000ft not 18. And of course you can also set it to that in PF3.
Hi everyone,

Sorry for just chiming in, but it's something I'm interested in as well. I thought that was changed in 3.4.0:
"CHANGED the VFR ceiling which is now determined by the control center altitude as this is controlled airspace into which VFR traffic should not venture."

So it's not the transition altitude anymore but the center altitude, i.e., usually 8000ft which is the default center altitude. Of course, you can still change that, so there is a way around it.

I still think there is potential for improvement. When I want to simulate a flight in an airspace I know I would like to be able to switch between VFR and IFR (aka CVFR) in PF3 at any altitude. Right now of course if I switch to VFR above Center altitude it just starts complaining about my altitude.

Anyways, I think with adjusting the center altitude it should work as expected.

Best,

David


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:19 pm
Posts: 12
Quote:
Quote:
Hello,

About your statement in being techinacally IFR in a controlled airspace, in all due respect this is completely wrong.
Flying IFR/VFR and being in a controlled airspace are totally different from each other, one is flying rules while the other is the fact of being subject to ATC authorizations. You can perfectly be flying VFR in a controlled airspace, and flying IFR in an uncontrolled airspace.
I am not "completely wrong" as you put it! Because in the UK and Europe to fly VFR in controlled airspace you need PPR "Prior Permission Required." You can do that on the fly and PF3 allows that. But in practice the real ATC require/prefer the permission to by given before take-off. Once you get permission your flight is designated "Special VFR". The rules in NZ may well allow you to do it but it is not common everywhere else. In fact many countries are very restrictive. You can set 18,000ft in PF3 to be you transition altitude if you want. So in PF3 you can ignore the rules if you so wish.
You are mixing everything up there.
Sorry to insist, I don't want to sound rude or pretentious but I also have an EASA ATPL and I'm a bit aware about how these things work.

Special VFR is a special clearance from ATC when you apply visual flight rules in a controlled airspace and the visibility is lower than 5000 meters and/or the clouds ceiling is below 1500ft, yes this is close to IFR. That said, if the weather is okay you don't need to be a special VFR when you're flying in a controlled airspace, you are flying VFR just like in an uncontrolled airspace, the only difference is that you are subject to the clearance of the ATC for take off, landing, altitude changes etc. but you are still flying VFR !
Special VFR has nothing to do about my "problem", it's just that the ceiling is not high enough.

I don't understand what all of this does here, you are mixing up all the information I gave you and finally I still don't have a solution. I just want to fly a VFR flight plan above 8000 ft as it is possible in real life. For example in France you usually can fly VFR up to FL195, of course it will be in a controlled airspace as soon as you're flying higher than FL115, but as long as you got the clearance, then you can fly VFR in this airspace.

About the transition altitude, I don't want to change it, I'd just like to get back the option to use 18 000ft as being the VFR ceiling instead of using the control center altitude, this would be much easier than changing the control center altitude one by one...
It seems this is the only solution for now. Thanks David for the information.

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TOGA projects founder & developer


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:52 am 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 950
Location: LIMZ
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hello,

About your statement in being techinacally IFR in a controlled airspace, in all due respect this is completely wrong.
Flying IFR/VFR and being in a controlled airspace are totally different from each other, one is flying rules while the other is the fact of being subject to ATC authorizations. You can perfectly be flying VFR in a controlled airspace, and flying IFR in an uncontrolled airspace.
I am not "completely wrong" as you put it! Because in the UK and Europe to fly VFR in controlled airspace you need PPR "Prior Permission Required." You can do that on the fly and PF3 allows that. But in practice the real ATC require/prefer the permission to by given before take-off. Once you get permission your flight is designated "Special VFR". The rules in NZ may well allow you to do it but it is not common everywhere else. In fact many countries are very restrictive. You can set 18,000ft in PF3 to be you transition altitude if you want. So in PF3 you can ignore the rules if you so wish.
You are mixing everything up there.
Sorry to insist, I don't want to sound rude or pretentious but I also have an EASA ATPL and I'm a bit aware about how these things work.

Special VFR is a special clearance from ATC when you apply visual flight rules in a controlled airspace and the visibility is lower than 5000 meters and/or the clouds ceiling is below 1500ft, yes this is close to IFR. That said, if the weather is okay you don't need to be a special VFR when you're flying in a controlled airspace, you are flying VFR just like in an uncontrolled airspace, the only difference is that you are subject to the clearance of the ATC for take off, landing, altitude changes etc. but you are still flying VFR !
Special VFR has nothing to do about my "problem", it's just that the ceiling is not high enough.

I don't understand what all of this does here, you are mixing up all the information I gave you and finally I still don't have a solution. I just want to fly a VFR flight plan above 8000 ft as it is possible in real life. For example in France you usually can fly VFR up to FL195, of course it will be in a controlled airspace as soon as you're flying higher than FL115, but as long as you got the clearance, then you can fly VFR in this airspace.

About the transition altitude, I don't want to change it, I'd just like to get back the option to use 18 000ft as being the VFR ceiling instead of using the control center altitude, this would be much easier than changing the control center altitude one by one...
It seems this is the only solution for now. Thanks David for the information.
You have highlited one of the problems that any ATC add-on has to face. In that every country has its own rules. France in particular. In effect in French airspace you can fly VFR anywhere at any time. In Italy controlled airspace in most cases extends from the surface. And, in Italy one is completely and totally forbidden to fly in controlled airspace without a certified ICAO level 4 English certificate! SVFR clearance is different in most countries as well.
It is not possible (at least extremely difficult and would create a very heavy and very very expensive ATC add-on) for an ATC add-on to correctly map all the controlled airspace for each and every country. And, importantly it is also not possible therefore for any ATC add-on to subsequently apply all the local regulations. It is difficult enough just taking into account the general situation for FAA and ICAO. So like any ATC add-on PF3 has to apply a rule of thumb as it were.

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