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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:08 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:48 pm
Posts: 14
Hi All,

I'm very confused about a couple things - and I cannot seem to get ATC to let me fly the SID/STAR and when I follow the ATC directions; I ALWAYS end up vastly too high on approach.

Flight from KBOS - KJFK:

I set the SID to "SSOXS 5" (set for all runways because I still cannot figure out what runway is active until AFTER I start PF3
Attachment:
KBOS - SID-STAR.PNG
KBOS - SID-STAR.PNG [ 197.26 KiB | Viewed 670 times ]
So after takeoff - I get handed off and ATC starts vectoring me to fly HDG 270 when I need to be headed ~180... I know PF3 cannot read the FMC on the PMDG 77W; but I'm way too novice to not have VNAV/LNAV turned on and allow the FD/FMC to let me know T/C - T/D etc....
Attachment:
KBOS - SID SSOXS 5.PNG
KBOS - SID SSOXS 5.PNG [ 118.53 KiB | Viewed 670 times ]
When I start the descent to KJFK - ATC is nagging me to stay at 18000 or 24000... and if I "listen" to ATC and when it eventually does clear me for landing - without a wing-tearing descent - I get a nice birds-eye flyby of JFK, Manhattan, and Puck Jersey (Yes, I'm a NY'r)
Attachment:
77W-FMC.PNG
77W-FMC.PNG [ 372.07 KiB | Viewed 670 times ]
How can I get ATC to allow me to follow the STAR altitudes in PF3?



Help?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:23 am 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 983
Location: LIMZ
Quote:
Hi All,

I'm very confused about a couple things - and I cannot seem to get ATC to let me fly the SID/STAR and when I follow the ATC directions; I ALWAYS end up vastly too high on approach.

Flight from KBOS - KJFK:

I set the SID to "SSOXS 5" (set for all runways because I still cannot figure out what runway is active until AFTER I start PF3

KBOS - SID-STAR.PNG

So after takeoff - I get handed off and ATC starts vectoring me to fly HDG 270 when I need to be headed ~180... I know PF3 cannot read the FMC on the PMDG 77W; but I'm way too novice to not have VNAV/LNAV turned on and allow the FD/FMC to let me know T/C - T/D etc....

KBOS - SID SSOXS 5.PNG

When I start the descent to KJFK - ATC is nagging me to stay at 18000 or 24000... and if I "listen" to ATC and when it eventually does clear me for landing - without a wing-tearing descent - I get a nice birds-eye flyby of JFK, Manhattan, and Puck Jersey (Yes, I'm a NY'r)

77W-FMC.PNG

How can I get ATC to allow me to follow the STAR altitudes in PF3?



Help?
First and foremost we need to see your actual flightplan. And, what you put into PF3. So you need to attach a zip file containing the debug_monitor.log from the logs directory and the entire contents of the FPP directory found in the Flight directory. Unfortunately flight planning even in the real world is not "point and go." You definately need to examine the charts for height restrictions before arrival and put those into PF3. And always make sure you enter the local airport FAF altitude as PF3 won't descend you below that. You need therefore to allow PF3 to descend you in good time. Always remember that what goes into the FMC is entirely unknown to the rest of the World both in PF3 and in real life.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:45 am 
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Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 433
Please zip and attach the debug_monitor.log file (located in your PF3\Logs folder) as it provides information we need to see your settings as well as what happened during your most recent flight. You can zip the file and attach it to your post (the file cannot have a .log extension when attached; it needs to be zipped in some form). What you are describing in the descent can sometimes happen if you have waypoints too close to the destination airport, but we need to look at your log file to see what is going on.

Edit: Vololiberista and I were typing at the same time. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:48 am 
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Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 433
Just to add, this is probably how I would set it up. Assuming a flight plan SSOXS5.SSOXS BUZRD SEY.PARCH2, my flight plan waypoints in PF3 would probably be: SSOXS BUZRD SEY PARCH CCC ROBER. For the departure, SSOXS is the first PF3 waypoint because you will cross it regardless which runway is used for departure. You would check (or tick) the SIDs box on the SID/STAR page and you should not get vectors after departure. Fly the departure as entered in your FMC, as selected for your departure runway.

For the STAR I would include PARCH CCC ROBER in the PF3 flight plan, once again because you will cross them regardless which runway is used for arrival. On the PF3 waypoint page, you can enter the crossing altitudes from the chart (12000 and 9000) for CCC and ROBER. If you leave the STARs box off on the SID/STAR page (recommended), PF3 will take over as you cross ROBER and will vector you to the active runway for arrival. If you check (or tick) the STARs box you will not get vectors after ROBER and PF3 will clear you to fly the remainder of the approach on your own. I would suggest leaving the STARs box off and letting PF3 vector you. (If you change your mind later you can hit hotkey 1 to request clearance at pilot's discretion, but the vectoring should work well in this case.)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:48 pm
Posts: 14
Thanks gents! You all have been spectacular thus far. Based on the suggestions / comments above, I think I have the SIDS/STARS parts a little better understood. Still confused as to what is "flight plan" and what is "procedures" (e.g: FPL ends at "FEY" then PARCH2.xx .. so how do I tell ATC these are points?

I've attached 2 flights. There is a text file in each "!STEPS" that I tool setting up the flight and key points during each. "Common Files" are the FPL/rte/SimBrief/kml files common to both flights.

THANKS!


*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

1st: KBOS=>KJFK with SID (SOXXS 5) and STAR (PARCH2.22L) This seemed to work; it acted the way you descriped - let me fly the FMC and we got to hit the ground. (A little too hard ... see pic 99 in ZIP file...)

NOTES:
a. I hear both ATIS announcements. How do we shut off the P3D one? (I turned off ATC in P3D options See pic 16)
b. Cleared crossing active rwy in KBOS.. but there was a JetBlue on takeoff (See pic 24)... does ATC not know where these plans are?

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

2nd: KBOS=>KJFK wit NO SID/STAR - vectors both sides. Got me to the ILS but was unable to land (always too high) and I know its' something I'm doing/not doing... but without a dive, the missed approach isn't getting me promoted to head airline captain anytime soon! ;-)


Attachments:
2nd KBOS-KJFK - Vectors.zip [1.08 MiB]
Downloaded 22 times
1st KBOS-KJFK w-SID-STAR.zip [5.98 MiB]
Downloaded 20 times
Common Files.zip [4.05 MiB]
Downloaded 18 times
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:08 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:48 pm
Posts: 14
Have completed about 10 flights since last post and to be honest, I'm bordering frustrated now.

I used SimBrief (RouteFinder) to set up and create the .pln for PF3 and ASN and .rte for PMDG 77W. The wx file is generated via ASN. I set up the SIDS/STARS in PF3 as to what SimBrief created. Start P3D, enter the .rte into the FMC and ask for clearance.

It's now a different runway (so the SID is now invalid) ... so I stop PF3 and redo the SID. Kind of a pain in the arse, but not too much lost; however...

The STAR is pre-set and when I follow it; PF3 starts nagging I'm "20 miles off the jetway". And further, it wants me to use a runway that the STAR is invalid for.

REAL WORLD: Of course, the wind changes, controllers are temperamental, etc... but if I want to fly a STAR with PF3 there are 2 major issues I can not figure out how to work around:

1. The approach and landing runway are indicated WAY after you hit the last waypoint so entering the new STAR in FMC is not an option. And even if we could, PF3 isn't going to know about it because we cannot go back into the SID/STAR setting to make PF3 aware of the procedure.

2. As some have posted (and the other ATC app actually does this) the "Expect runway / approach" is known to the pilot before push and start (as it is in the real world). Of course things change in-flight (wind, air-frames littering a runway, etc) but PF3 will not adjust to that with SID/STAR changes.

What I'm starting to understand and would like to have some validation on is if I want to fly SID/STAR - "Force" PF3 to use designated runways for departure and approach. Which essentially means do not use ASN because I don't want to land with a tail wind. (This is unrealistic of course for "real world feel"). If I want to use ASN and have "real world feel"; only do vectoring.

Am I missing something??? (And PLEASE educate me here... I've flown VFR in the real world and "requesting straight out departure" from Goodyear (KGYR) was the most complicated conversation the ATC)

I'll post the files after the next flight (video card crashed on start of approach)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:36 am 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 983
Location: LIMZ
Having a brief look at your post it would seem that your weather is the culprit. I always run my weather engine before setting up PF3. One reason for that is that the weather engine takes some time to update the various waypoints and destination. Obviously what goes into your FMC flightplan wise has to be pretty identical to what PF3 runs with.
Even if the weather does change en-route requiring a change in the landing runway your STAR should be the same. Because it is attached to where you have come from. To give an example if I am arriving into Heathrow EGGL from the South East I will use one of the STARS let's say BIG 4B that deposits me over the BIG VOR which is a published hold. It is from that point that ATC will direct me to whatever the landing rwy may be. You can see that the airport is to the top right in the image. But the end of the STAR is a looooooong way to the South East. The actual landing runway can be any one of the available rwys at Heathrow.
Attachment:
lhr.jpg
lhr.jpg [ 26.9 KiB | Viewed 549 times ]
Remember that a SID takes you from the departure rwy to the start of your fpl. and a STAR must attach to the end of your fpl.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:48 pm
Posts: 14
I get the connection parts... 3 planned parts of a flight "SID => PLN => STAR" (But cannot plan it unless I know what it will be... )

My "start up procedure" is always:
1. Charts on kneeboard
2. Launch ASN Weather (load .PLN file)
3. Launch P3D
a. Select Airlines (nostalgic for PAA/TWA)
b. Set APT/Gate
c. Wait for PMDG to do it's thing
4. Set up FMC (Load .PLN)
5. Launch PF3 (Load .PLN file)
6. Play around with FS2Crew ("Good Will Hunting" joke about coffee is played out in my head)
7. Wait until weather is "injected"
7. Clearance / taxi (And reverse thrust out of the gate - much more accurate then pushback)
8. ... Fly



I did a KBOS-KJFK flight again last night (wanted to enjoy the wonderful storm weather and Turbulence!) Started off with SID - SSOXS - but didn't set a STAR because of the weather. ATC departure turned out to be 4L; SSOXS5 is not a valid SID for that runway in the FMC (using AIRAC 1711); only LOGAN2 is used so ATC has to interact after initial clime (Which it doesn't) Hit last waypoint in PLN (SEY) and the 77W went nuts trying to figure out what to do next... took about 2 mins for ATC to give me a runway. Set the runway and "PARCH2.13L / Trans COVIR" in FMC and tried to fly it. About 3 mics from the runway (on approach with g/s locked) .. ATC started nagging me about "maintaining 3000 ft". Additionally; I missed the approach (bloody weather ;) ) and ATC would not vector me back (how do you declare a missed approach?? - no option "9" when in SID/STAR mode it seems)

To be fair, PF3 is awesome if you want to follow the ATC even though it doesn't follow published procedures. The flight I did this morning KBOS => KJFK with no SID/STAR was great accept the issue of departure cleared me to expect FL280 in 10 (but kept me at 3000 until "resume own nav")

Also; once at KJFK - Ground only says "taxi to terminal"... wasn't aware parking was first come/first serve there now... :P

CONCLUSION:

There are times I want to control where/how I go (flying VHHX/KaiTak and "around" HK for example) and other times I want to "be surprised and follow ATC ... but I always want ATC to talk to me.

If I just want to fly SID/STAR; don't use ATC (thus don't use ASN) ... it's bloody useless and a nightmare to setup IF one gets it right before connecting to P3D otherwise it's Clapham Junction! I like a lot of things about PF3 (and why I chose it over ATC/X) but PF3's inability to consume NAVAID data, adjust SID/STAR once in progress, and give "expect info" for destination is frustrating with advanced airframes like PMDG.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:48 pm
Posts: 14
Quote:

Even if the weather does change en-route requiring a change in the landing runway your STAR should be the same. Because it is attached to where you have come from.
This might be the case a majority of the time; but several airports I use (KJFK KSFO to name 2) have STARS depending on your runway. KJFK entering at SEY and go to ROBER2 or PARCH2 - and then there are transitions after that which PF3 is unaware of.
Attachment:
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG [ 1.22 MiB | Viewed 525 times ]


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