OnCourse Software

I have just started with PF3, and I am slowly getting used to it...needs some time to get the full potential, but it is a great product.
I am still not sure, what is the best way to include a SID in a flight plan:
Should I include all waypoints when creating the FP which are represented in the official SID plate - that would mean that the first waypoint is often too close to the airport - and then in PF3 define the last waypoint of the SID as "end of DP".

Or should I just include the last waypoint of the SID in the flight plan - since PF3 anyhow ignores the waypoints from departure airport to last SID waypoint when defined as "DP", meaning there is no vectoring?

Thanks for clarifying,

Thomas

Hi Thomas

There is no need to include SID waypoints in a PF3 flightplan. Have the first waypoint in the plan as the end of SID. Tick the box on the SIDS/STARS page for SIDS active, and select "end of SID" on your flightplan page.

You can also select an "altitude completed" definition on the SIDS/STARS page for the airport you are departing from (do this for all departure runways). Then ATC will consider the SID is complete either when you reach that altitude OR you reach the end of SID waypoint, whichever occurs first. This is useful and more accurate to RW procedures. For example most EGLL SIDS have a 6000 feet ceiling which continues all the way to the end, but in practive you will be cleared higher well before that. Adding the 6000 foot "SID complete" parameters mean that you will get 6000 as your first clearance, and then will get further clearance sometime after you reach it.

The only time I would add one of the SID waypoints to the actual flightplan would be if it was a SID which ended say 100nm from the airport.

Why select "end of SID" on the flightplan page with the SID waypoints not included in the flightplan? Doesn't PF3 automatically regard the first waypoint as the end of SID if no waypoint is assigned as such?
What difference would assigning the first waypoint as "end of SID" on the flightplan page make?
Same question goes for the last waypoint as "start of STAR" if no STAR waypoints are included in the flightplan.

Ralf, I think you have to tell PF3 the last SID waypoint, otherwise you will be vectored and cannot fly the procedure on your own, I guess.

@Peter: Thanks for the clarification - just finished a flight vom KHIO to KBDN and did only include the last SID waypoint, worked perfectly fine

Thomas_LOLW wrote:

Ralf, I think you have to tell PF3 the last SID waypoint, otherwise you will be vectored and cannot fly the procedure on your own, I guess.

As far as I understand, that is what ticking (fly the SID) or unticking (be vectored) the SID option does.

RALF9636 wrote:

Why select "end of SID" on the flightplan page with the SID waypoints not included in the flightplan? Doesn't PF3 automatically regard the first waypoint as the end of SID if no waypoint is assigned as such?
What difference would assigning the first waypoint as "end of SID" on the flightplan page make?
Same question goes for the last waypoint as "start of STAR" if no STAR waypoints are included in the flightplan.

If you are flying a route that necessitates flying a SID then the last wypt of that SID is in effect the first wypt of your flightplan. There is a lot of confusion and misconception in the sim world. Principaly because a lot of simmers don't use ATC. Instead they use their beloved FMCs. So when they do use an ATC add-on to them their FMC takes precedence when of course it should not.

A SID is nothing more than a planned published route from a runway to your flightplan. It is not given to you by ATC (another misconception). It is already and should be part of your flightplan. Obviously when runway changes happen the SID will change as well. Nine times out of ten there will only be one SID option however many runway changes are made as that specific SID will be the only link to your fpl. Sometimes there is more than one SID ending at the same wypt. In these cases you need to know the local regulations and purpose for those SIDS e.g one might be only for night use or intended for aircraft routing in a different direction e.g. not crossing the Alps. A good example is at Venezia LIPZ. Both ROKIB 6J and ROKIB 6S are from runway 04R to the ROKIB fix. ROKIB 6J is for aircraft crossing the Alps and ROKIB 6s is for aircraft routing more Westerly. Also ROKIB 6S is not used when Treviso airspace is active. This is why when using a flightplanning programme you should always have the ability to override its output. Yet another reason why these programmes always say "Not to be used for real world aviation!"

Thanks for the detailed explanation.
That is essentially how I already understand and handle SIDs (and STARs).

It doesn't answer though, if or why I should assign the first waypoint as "End of SID" on the flightplan page of PF3, as suggested by pschlute.

RALF9636 wrote:

Thanks for the detailed explanation.
That is essentially how I already understand and handle SIDs (and STARs).

It doesn't answer though, if or why I should assign the first waypoint as "End of SID" on the flightplan page of PF3, as suggested by pschlute.

Sorry, I think I may have confused the issue.

If you have ticked the SIDS checkbox in the SIDS/STARS page, there is no need to select the first waypoint as "end of SID". PF3 will know that already.

If you have not ticked the SIDS checkbox, you can still enable the SID function by selecting "end of SID" in your flightplan.

pschlute wrote:

Sorry, I think I may have confused the issue.

If you have ticked the SIDS checkbox in the SIDS/STARS page, there is no need to select the first waypoint as "end of SID". PF3 will know that already.

If you have not ticked the SIDS checkbox, you can still enable the SID function by selecting "end of SID" in your flightplan.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware of that. I guess it is the same for the Start of STAR?

Just to confirm: If I assign an End of SID waypoint resp. a Start of STAR waypoint on the flightplan page of PF3, i will always be cleared for the procedure and never be vectored, regardless if the SID resp. STAR Option is ticked or not?

Regarding SIDs, I usually leave the SIDs box unticked and set my first waypoint as the end of SID. I think if you tick the SIDs box, PF3 may consider the SID to be completed at an altitude (either the altitude you specify or, if you don't set one, an altitude that PF3 determines). If you reach this altitude before your first waypoint, PF3 will end the SID. If I want the SID to end at my first waypoint, irrespective of altitude, I usually leave the SIDs box unticked and set my first waypoint as end of SID. This seems to work best for me but we each have our own preferences.