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 Post subject: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:56 pm
Posts: 23
Hi all, just completed a flight from KLAX to NZAA using the PMDG 777. Clearance was fine, used different voices for pilots and controllers. Contacting Dep, I got the same voice foe controller and pilot. This happens quite a bit latley. Seems to happen a lot in USA and Oceania.

Now speaking of Oceania, when ever I arrive in NZAA, from the north or west, I am told I am cleared to Final, decend to 2000ft and contact tower etc. Should this happen before TOD. Always seem to have an unrealistic experience down under with PF3, either same voice for Controller and pilot, and weird handovers to different sectors.
Think this needs looking at if possible.

I am careful to rebuild database when required. In the most part PF3 works very well, but these gremlins seems to happen worse south of the Equator.

Have attached log


Attachments:
debug_monitor.zip [1.68 MiB]
Downloaded 45 times

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 Post subject: Re: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:56 pm
Posts: 23
Forgot to add, I was cleared to final about 100nm before TOD. No decent clearance given

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 Post subject: Re: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:08 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:56 pm
Posts: 23
Everybody on holiday ? :(

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 Post subject: Re: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:27 pm
Posts: 930
I can't speak for the others, but holidays just ended for me, so I'm busy at work.
Additionally your log is compressed with rar, even if the file is called .zip, and the terms and conditions of newer rar implementations are not nice, so I don't install it.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:56 pm
Posts: 23
Thanks Thomas. Have re upload with winzip. Appreciate you having a look.


Attachments:
debug_monitor.zip [2.22 MiB]
Downloaded 43 times

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 Post subject: Re: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:46 am 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 982
Location: LIMZ
Quote:

Now speaking of Oceania, when ever I arrive in NZAA, from the north or west, I am told I am cleared to Final, decend to 2000ft and contact tower etc. Should this happen before TOD.

Have attached log
TOD is a calculation made by your FMC based solely on your input as to be the most economic point to start your descent. ATC even in the real world don't know that. So TOD is "advice" given to the pilots by the FMC. It is in no way mandatory. ATC can and do descend you at will according to traffic etc. Most of the time in the real world ATC will descend you more or less where your TOD is simply because if you have a properly constructed flight plan there will be a correlation.

If it is really important that you start your descent precisely at TOD for reasons such as low fuel for example then you can in PF3 as in the real world ask for a lower altitude but as in the real world that would entail recomputing all your descent profiles.
TOD only applies to the initial descent from cruise. Bear in mind that after that point there are many real world altitude and speed restrictions that may have to be followed.

There are too many videos on YT by "Reputable" youtubers that never use ATC and thus use TOD as indicated by their FMCs. This puts TOD in people's minds as therefore being "de rigueur". And, on these occasions without ATC it obviously has to work. However, add ATC to the equation and it's a different kettle of fish entirely.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:56 pm
Posts: 23
Quote:
Quote:

Now speaking of Oceania, when ever I arrive in NZAA, from the north or west, I am told I am cleared to Final, decend to 2000ft and contact tower etc. Should this happen before TOD.

Have attached log
TOD is a calculation made by your FMC based solely on your input as to be the most economic point to start your descent. ATC even in the real world don't know that. So TOD is "advice" given to the pilots by the FMC. It is in no way mandatory. ATC can and do descend you at will according to traffic etc. Most of the time in the real world ATC will descend you more or less where your TOD is simply because if you have a properly constructed flight plan there will be a correlation.

If it is really important that you start your descent precisely at TOD for reasons such as low fuel for example then you can in PF3 as in the real world ask for a lower altitude but as in the real world that would entail recomputing all your descent profiles.
TOD only applies to the initial descent from cruise. Bear in mind that after that point there are many real world altitude and speed restrictions that may have to be followed.

There are too many videos on YT by "Reputable" youtubers that never use ATC and thus use TOD as indicated by their FMCs. This puts TOD in people's minds as therefore being "de rigueur". And, on these occasions without ATC it obviously has to work. However, add ATC to the equation and it's a different kettle of fish entirely.
Think you have mis understood my problem. Been flying for many years, with PFE and PF3, so with all due respect, I am up with the play :)


My issue, is that I do not get decent clearance whatsoever after commencing decent, I get clearance to final at 38000ft 250nm before the airport. Not even handed over to approach, just cleared to final. Only happens in Oceania, not in USA or Europe. That is certainly not realistic, or what PF3 is designed to do, unless some kind of unknown bug. Also, getting the same controller and who is also flying 200 odd AI planes is also not what PF3 is designed to do. Thanks for trying to help anyway.

Edit: Most PF3 flights, I am cleared to descend at pilots discretion to a certain altitude, not in this instance. I am cleared to the FAF, contact tower on ...... From FL380 ? The controller would need a Cristal ball, could be 20 planes on final. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:02 am 
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Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 6:22 pm
Posts: 3482
Quote:
Hi all, just completed a flight from KLAX to NZAA using the PMDG 777. Clearance was fine, used different voices for pilots and controllers. Contacting Dep, I got the same voice foe controller and pilot. This happens quite a bit latley. Seems to happen a lot in USA and Oceania.

Now speaking of Oceania, when ever I arrive in NZAA, from the north or west, I am told I am cleared to Final, decend to 2000ft and contact tower etc. Should this happen before TOD. Always seem to have an unrealistic experience down under with PF3, either same voice for Controller and pilot, and weird handovers to different sectors.
Think this needs looking at if possible.

I am careful to rebuild database when required. In the most part PF3 works very well, but these gremlins seems to happen worse south of the Equator.

Have attached log
The same controller/AI pilot voices has been addressed in the next maintenance release... until then you could improve things by increasing the number of voice sets available for those problem areas by adding additional backups.

The clearance you received was because you had a STAR setup for that particular approach and you reached the configured starting point

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

Without a log it didn't happen!

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 Post subject: Re: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:03 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:56 pm
Posts: 23
Quote:
Quote:
Hi all, just completed a flight from KLAX to NZAA using the PMDG 777. Clearance was fine, used different voices for pilots and controllers. Contacting Dep, I got the same voice foe controller and pilot. This happens quite a bit latley. Seems to happen a lot in USA and Oceania.

Now speaking of Oceania, when ever I arrive in NZAA, from the north or west, I am told I am cleared to Final, decend to 2000ft and contact tower etc. Should this happen before TOD. Always seem to have an unrealistic experience down under with PF3, either same voice for Controller and pilot, and weird handovers to different sectors.
Think this needs looking at if possible.

I am careful to rebuild database when required. In the most part PF3 works very well, but these gremlins seems to happen worse south of the Equator.

Have attached log
The same controller/AI pilot voices has been addressed in the next maintenance release... until then you could improve things by increasing the number of voice sets available for those problem areas by adding additional backups.

The clearance you received was because you had a STAR setup for that particular approach and you reached the configured starting point
Would that be due to the lack of WP's in the Star Dave ? Also, thanks for the info re future maintenance release.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd behaviour
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 982
Location: LIMZ
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hi all, just completed a flight from KLAX to NZAA using the PMDG 777. Clearance was fine, used different voices for pilots and controllers. Contacting Dep, I got the same voice foe controller and pilot. This happens quite a bit latley. Seems to happen a lot in USA and Oceania.

Now speaking of Oceania, when ever I arrive in NZAA, from the north or west, I am told I am cleared to Final, decend to 2000ft and contact tower etc. Should this happen before TOD. Always seem to have an unrealistic experience down under with PF3, either same voice for Controller and pilot, and weird handovers to different sectors.
Think this needs looking at if possible.

I am careful to rebuild database when required. In the most part PF3 works very well, but these gremlins seems to happen worse south of the Equator.

Have attached log
The same controller/AI pilot voices has been addressed in the next maintenance release... until then you could improve things by increasing the number of voice sets available for those problem areas by adding additional backups.

The clearance you received was because you had a STAR setup for that particular approach and you reached the configured starting point
Would that be due to the lack of WP's in the Star Dave ? Also, thanks for the info re future maintenance release.
You need to look at the verticle profile of your flight plan. For example if PF3 shows cruise level between wypts U, V and X but your FMC suggests you start your descent at V then adjust your waypoints to have a lower altitude at V bearing in mind that all further waypoints will have to be adjusted down as well so that they meet the correct Fl at the STAR entry point.

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