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Last waypoint too close

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mllgrennman
Post subject: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:02 pm
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I have noticed that when the last waypoint is too close I don't get the runway assignment until I fly over the airport...which of course is too late...I am currently doing a tour with VOR nav only...this means the last waypoint will always be the VOR at the destination airport. That's how I hone in on it. I have maintained that PFE should utilize waypoints, but should not be dependent on them. Runway assignment should be determined by Distance to airport alone, regardless of the waypoints. I hope this will be updated, and make a great program even better.


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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:05 pm
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mllgrennman wrote:
I have noticed that when the last waypoint is too close I don't get the runway assignment until I fly over the airport...which of course is too late...I am currently doing a tour with VOR nav only...this means the last waypoint will always be the VOR at the destination airport. That's how I hone in on it. I have maintained that PFE should utilize waypoints, but should not be dependent on them. Runway assignment should be determined by Distance to airport alone, regardless of the waypoints. I hope this will be updated, and make a great program even better.
Why would you create a fpl with the last waypoint being the airport VOR???
That's not how it's done so don't expect PF3 to behave correctly.
There is nothing wrong in using the airport VOR for navigation purposes. But as part of a flightplan it isn't done.
Quote:
Runway assignment should be determined by Distance to airport alone, regardless of the waypoints.
First you are not dealing with the real world you have to account for the sim ATC. In other words PF3 has to try to match what the AI is instructed to do when determining the active runway.
Second runway assignments are based on wind direction not on where you are. Except when using default ATC which is incorrect (Default ATC will assign you the nearest runway which is incorrect procedure). In other words the landing runway is the landing runway whether I am on Earth or Mars!
Third if you try to create a fpl that doesn't make sense then don't expect a sensible response from PF3.
Fourth in the real world ATC will send you to a holding point at the end of a STAR and descend you from that point wherever it may be. Their decision is not based on how far that wypt is from the threshold.
Fifth
Quote:
Runway assignment should be determined by Distance to airport alone, regardless of the waypoints.
That is not how it is done in the real world!

The only times runway assignment is a problem is when there is a crosswind which is a problem within the sim. That said PF3 does quite often get around that. For example I have often been allowed to continue when the AI is cleared to land on the opposite runway. They overshoot!!

Dave isn't going to make any changes to PF3 code that is incorrect procedure in real life.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:00 pm
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vololiberista wrote:
mllgrennman wrote:
I have noticed that when the last waypoint is too close I don't get the runway assignment until I fly over the airport...which of course is too late...I am currently doing a tour with VOR nav only...this means the last waypoint will always be the VOR at the destination airport. That's how I hone in on it. I have maintained that PFE should utilize waypoints, but should not be dependent on them. Runway assignment should be determined by Distance to airport alone, regardless of the waypoints. I hope this will be updated, and make a great program even better.
Why would you create a fpl with the last waypoint being the airport VOR???
That's not how it's done so don't expect PF3 to behave correctly.
There is nothing wrong in using the airport VOR for navigation purposes. But as part of a flightplan it isn't done.
Quote:
Runway assignment should be determined by Distance to airport alone, regardless of the waypoints.
First you are not dealing with the real world you have to account for the sim ATC. In other words PF3 has to try to match what the AI is instructed to do when determining the active runway.
Second runway assignments are based on wind direction not on where you are. Except when using default ATC which is incorrect (Default ATC will assign you the nearest runway which is incorrect procedure). In other words the landing runway is the landing runway whether I am on Earth or Mars!
Third if you try to create a fpl that doesn't make sense then don't expect a sensible response from PF3.
Fourth in the real world ATC will send you to a holding point at the end of a STAR and descend you from that point wherever it may be. Their decision is not based on how far that wypt is from the threshold.
Fifth
Quote:
Runway assignment should be determined by Distance to airport alone, regardless of the waypoints.
That is not how it is done in the real world!

The only times runway assignment is a problem is when there is a crosswind which is a problem within the sim. That said PF3 does quite often get around that. For example I have often been allowed to continue when the AI is cleared to land on the opposite runway. They overshoot!!

Dave isn't going to make any changes to PF3 code that is incorrect procedure in real life.
In any case PF3 will allow you to ask for a runway change if you need it.

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Dan77
Post subject: Re: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:30 pm
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mllgrennman wrote:
I am currently doing a tour with VOR nav only...this means the last waypoint will always be the VOR at the destination airport.
Also, be wary of "real-world" flight plans you may see that have the destination airport's VOR as the final waypoint. In reality ATC will issue vectors for the active runway before the aircraft reaches the destination VOR.

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drumsart
Post subject: Re: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:30 pm
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Dan77 wrote:
mllgrennman wrote:
I am currently doing a tour with VOR nav only...this means the last waypoint will always be the VOR at the destination airport.
Also, be wary of "real-world" flight plans you may see that have the destination airport's VOR as the final waypoint. In reality ATC will issue vectors for the active runway before the aircraft reaches the destination VOR.
You're absolutly right ! So, why Pf3 seems not manage Atc this way ? Again don't get me wrong, PF3 is a great programme but I think it contains certain curious concepts with regard to the reality concerning some procedures. If this could be improved, I think it would not be far from the best, if not the best !

Just my 2cts

Kind Regards,

Richard Portier

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Richard Portier
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Dan77
Post subject: Re: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:01 am
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drumsart wrote:
You're absolutly right ! So, why Pf3 seems not manage Atc this way ? Again don't get me wrong, PF3 is a great programme but I think it contains certain curious concepts with regard to the reality concerning some procedures. If this could be improved, I think it would not be far from the best, if not the best !
Back in ProFlight 2000/PFE, waypoints closer than 15 nm from the destination airport were automatically dropped from the flight plan, for just this reason (as were waypoints that were too close to the departure airport or too close together). This in itself created some issues and complaints, so in PF3 the decision was made not to automatically drop waypoints, but to show a warning when waypoints were too close together or too close to the airport. The user can choose to disregard the warning, but (as the warning states) there may be unexpected results, particularly if waypoints are very close to the airport.

If you are flying a procedure with waypoints that are very close to the airport (for example, an RNAV approach), you can enter those waypoints in your FMC and fly the approach at pilot's discretion in PF3. You can fly waypoints directly to the runway threshold in this way.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:15 am
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Dan77 wrote:
drumsart wrote:
If you are flying a procedure with waypoints that are very close to the airport (for example, an RNAV approach), you can enter those waypoints in your FMC and fly the approach at pilot's discretion in PF3. You can fly waypoints directly to the runway threshold in this way.
This is what I have to do on occasion. For example flying into Los Rodeos Tenerife from the North. The last STAR waypoint is to the North of the island. But In order to get to the airport itself I have to fly around the island and then join the localiser. PF3 doesn't account for terrain height so there's a real risk that when it vectores you, you would scratch the paintwork! The solution in this instance is to have a fpl for PF3 that stops at the last STAR wypt and another one in your FMC/Inertial navigation with the extra waypoints needed to circumnavigate the high terrain. Thus allowing you to make the correct turns at the required altitudes. PF3 therefore would allow you to continue flying the last leg under your own navigation as it were. Obviously you would have to set up PF3 to expect this end to the flightplan.

In the real World the local ATC know (should know!) that there is a mountain the way and would obviously vector you correctly. But in the sim it's not possible to replicate because terrain heights are unknown to PF3. I don't know if there is a way for PF3 to obtain that information. If it was possible, it would make PF3 extremely powerful and even more flexible.

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mllgrennman
Post subject: Re: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:17 am
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thank you for your responses...yes i do not know RW procedures, and I would not ask for a change that is not the way it's really done...so...im doing a tour in africa with the CS 737-200...it is only capable of VOR NAV...and the navaids are few and far between....how would i create a usable flightplan that that will give me notice of what approach and runway i need to get in position with enough time to prepare?


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mllgrennman
Post subject: Re: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:20 am
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vololiberista wrote:
Why would you create a fpl with the last waypoint being the airport VOR???
with aircraft that only have vor nav...it is the only way i know where the airport is and its distance.


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mllgrennman
Post subject: Re: Last waypoint too close
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:31 am
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Posts: 390
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vololiberista wrote:
Fifth
Quote:
Runway assignment should be determined by Distance to airport alone, regardless of the waypoints.
That is not how it is done in the real world!
when i say runway assignment im not talking about changing from one to another...i mean when atc tells me which one is in use with enough notice so i can execute the right approach...

ATIS is not always available, and wind direction changes in flight...i really have no idea during a flight what my approach will really be until ATC contacts me with my assignment...its usually between 30-75 miles from destination...unless my last waypoint is too close or too far...which i dont always have control over...ive found that PF3 gives me runway assignment and vectors based on last waypoint, rather that distance from airport...which has resulted in some bad flights for me...


my point is this...if PF3 is programmed to give me runway assgnment at "X" miles from last waypoint....why not just make it "X" miles from destination, and alleviate all this room for error?

waypoints are quite varied from flight to flight, whereas DTA is much more dependable.


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