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Constantly problems with flightplans

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rvm33
Post subject: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:44 pm
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Maybe it's me and I can not handle PF3 properly.
Every flight so far with PF3 was in one way or the other unsuccessful.

Here 3 points:
Basically PF3 refuses to bring me down in time for approach at every flight without regard to what descent parameters are set when loading that flightplan. If I tell PF3 that the descent profile is 4000 fmp or 1500 fpm it will issue the descent at the last waypoint. If that waypoint is 320 NM from the airport or only 15 NM it does not matter. It seems that PF3 is not creating a TOC waypoint at all.

I did not manage to set a start SID at a waypoint in the flightplan and then have 2 more waypoints following of that SID. PF3 instead of issuing the apporach and runway instructions at the designated point, waits for me to reach the last waypoint and then issues the instructions. This beats the whole point of having an option to select the start SID point if that waypoint needs to be always the last one in the flightplan.

I also can not impose a specific altitude at a specific waypoint. It seems that PF3 disregards the adjustments set and loaded and confirmed by pressing "Save/Use..." button before each flight. This makes impossible to program manually a descent path.


Take a very simple IFR flight plan from TIST (st. thomas in us virgin islands) to TNCM (princess juliana in st. maarten). Flightplan has 3 waypoints: PASIC at 19000 ft (being also the flight level) then LARPP at 17000 ft and finally JUICE at 10000 ft.
I made an adjustment that JUICE has 9000 ft and is also start SID point.
I get from CLR the initial altitude of 5000 ft and fly runway heading. I take off, get the correct heading to turn to the first waypoint.
Reach 5000 ft and nothing. No instruction.
Ask for FL190 and get cleared to it.
I pass PASIC and LARPP. Just before reaching the last waypoint i get the instruction to descent at 17000 ft. Mind that at JUICE i should be at 9000 ft not 17.000 ft.
At passing JUICE i get the instruction to descent to 3000 ft land runway 10. Needless to say, had to fly a holding pattern to get down to 3000.
I attached the flightplan and logs of this flight.
Unfortunately I cannot descifer the log.

So, since nobody has yet complained about PF3 disregarding the adjustment file or not being able to set a different waypoint than the last as start SID it must be me and I do something wrong.
So please, If someone has some idea or maybe would share a flightplan that behaved properly on your system for me to test PF3 would be great.

Thanks!

Attachments
Logs and flightplan.rar
(417.67 KiB) Downloaded 179 times


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Dave Leesley
Post subject: Re: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:13 pm
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Just for starters and i haven't opened your log files yet...what's your altitude and length of flight?

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rvm33
Post subject: Re: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:56 pm
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The one attached is 108 NM, set altitude is 17000 ft and flight time of 1 hour.


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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:10 pm
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My FS9 doesn't see your fpl at all. I'm working on a couple of alternatives for tomorrow.

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rvm33
Post subject: Re: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:43 am
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This would be the original FSX flightplan which PF3 then converts.
In FSX is enough to unpack and load it from the simulator or PF3.
I am not sure if it works in FS9 but can also be build manually because the 3 waypoints between TIST and TNCM are on the B520, a straight line which connects the 2 airports.

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TIST-TNCM-8042.rar
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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:13 am
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rvm33 wrote:
Maybe it's me and I can not handle PF3 properly.
Every flight so far with PF3 was in one way or the other unsuccessful.

Here 3 points:
Basically PF3 refuses to bring me down in time for approach at every flight without regard to what descent parameters are set when loading that flightplan. If I tell PF3 that the descent profile is 4000 fmp or 1500 fpm it will issue the descent at the last waypoint. If that waypoint is 320 NM from the airport or only 15 NM it does not matter. It seems that PF3 is not creating a TOC waypoint at all.

I did not manage to set a start SID at a waypoint in the flightplan and then have 2 more waypoints following of that SID. PF3 instead of issuing the apporach and runway instructions at the designated point, waits for me to reach the last waypoint and then issues the instructions. This beats the whole point of having an option to select the start SID point if that waypoint needs to be always the last one in the flightplan.

I also can not impose a specific altitude at a specific waypoint. It seems that PF3 disregards the adjustments set and loaded and confirmed by pressing "Save/Use..." button before each flight. This makes impossible to program manually a descent path.


Take a very simple IFR flight plan from TIST (st. thomas in us virgin islands) to TNCM (princess juliana in st. maarten). Flightplan has 3 waypoints: PASIC at 19000 ft (being also the flight level) then LARPP at 17000 ft and finally JUICE at 10000 ft.
I made an adjustment that JUICE has 9000 ft and is also start SID point.
I get from CLR the initial altitude of 5000 ft and fly runway heading. I take off, get the correct heading to turn to the first waypoint.
Reach 5000 ft and nothing. No instruction.
Ask for FL190 and get cleared to it.
I pass PASIC and LARPP. Just before reaching the last waypoint i get the instruction to descent at 17000 ft. Mind that at JUICE i should be at 9000 ft not 17.000 ft.
At passing JUICE i get the instruction to descent to 3000 ft land runway 10. Needless to say, had to fly a holding pattern to get down to 3000.
I attached the flightplan and logs of this flight.
Unfortunately I cannot descifer the log.

So, since nobody has yet complained about PF3 disregarding the adjustment file or not being able to set a different waypoint than the last as start SID it must be me and I do something wrong.
So please, If someone has some idea or maybe would share a flightplan that behaved properly on your system for me to test PF3 would be great.

Thanks!
The main problem here is you didn't follow ATC instructions and took it upon yourself to continue climbing. I see you are also using voice recognition and so your VCP mode is set to zero. May I suggest, until you get used to PF3 that you maybe try setting your VCP mode to 3 and don't bother about VR until you are happy that PF3 is working as it should and you can actually see what it does and how it does it.

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
...I just can't remember how it used to be!

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:17 pm
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Some things I found in your log:
GCTimeout=0
You are using voice recognition, and I found in the logs that PF3 sometimes is very quick to move to the next call.
I suggest you set the "PTT pause interval" to somewhere between 5 to 10 seconds and/or use a PTT key to pause PF3 while you are talking.

I haven't verified why SIDs are off, but your PF3.ini contains "SID=0" and PF3 logs:
16/04/2016 20:58:02: 230 - SID Feature is OFF
The next one indicates that you are using a COM1 without standby frequency, so while switching to Tower 118.1 you had dialed in Departure 118.6 for a second.
PF3 starts talking to you as soon as it sees you on the Departure frequency for a moment, even if you did not tell them that you are on that frequency.
(Dave, this is a bug. Should I file separately it in the beta forum?) -- Edit: I just filed it as "departure talks to rvm33 before making checkin"
Frequencies for WP: 0 TIST
Mul - 118.8
Uni - 122.95
Grd - 121.9
Twr - 118.1
Clr - 122
App - 123.5 
Dep - 123.6
FSS - 0
 
Frequencies for WP: 1 TIST (Enroute)
Mul - 118.8
Uni - 122.95
Grd - 121.9
Twr - 118.1
Clr - 121.9
App - 132.5
Dep - 118.6
FSS - 0

16/04/2016 21:02:00: 940 - Ground Altitude=22 ClrdAlt=23 Terrain=0 COM=121.9
16/04/2016 21:02:02: 080 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Contact Tower on 118.1  '
16/04/2016 21:03:06: 500 - Ground Altitude=22 ClrdAlt=23 Terrain=0 COM=121.9
16/04/2016 21:03:08: 740 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!
16/04/2016 21:03:09: 880 - Ground Altitude=22 ClrdAlt=23 Terrain=0 COM=121.9
16/04/2016 21:03:14: 270 - Ground Altitude=22 ClrdAlt=23 Terrain=0 COM=120.9
16/04/2016 21:03:17: 410 - Ground Altitude=22 ClrdAlt=23 Terrain=0 COM=118.6
16/04/2016 21:03:18: 590 - Current COM's (Routing=24)
16/04/2016 21:03:18: 720 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Roger Radar contact Altimeter is 2992  '
16/04/2016 21:03:25: 130 - Ground Altitude=22 ClrdAlt=23 Terrain=0 COM=118.1

Another case off ATC being too quick:
1. Tower issues "Turn right heading 100" after asking you to contact Departure. Okay, you did not confirm switching for 22 seconds, but still strange.
2. After tuning in Departure, they tell you to Turn right heading 100 even before you made contact with them.
16/04/2016 21:07:17: 480 - Ground Altitude=0 ClrdAlt=23 Terrain=0 COM=118.1
16/04/2016 21:07:17: 690 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Contact departure on 118.6  '
16/04/2016 21:07:17: 770 - FS Screen :  R-A Delta 8042 Contact departure on 118.6
16/04/2016 21:07:27: 100 - Ground Altitude=0 ClrdAlt=19000 Terrain=0 COM=118.1
16/04/2016 21:07:39: 200 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Turn right heading 100  '
16/04/2016 21:07:39: 250 - FS Screen :  R-A Delta 8042 Turn right heading 100
16/04/2016 21:07:41: 310 - COM Changes at #3
16/04/2016 21:07:42: 320 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!
16/04/2016 21:07:44: 730 - Ground Altitude=0 ClrdAlt=19000 Terrain=0 COM=118.6
16/04/2016 21:07:47: 170 - Ground Altitude=0 ClrdAlt=19000 Terrain=0 COM=118.6
16/04/2016 21:07:49: 550 - Ground Altitude=0 ClrdAlt=19000 Terrain=0 COM=118.6
16/04/2016 21:07:52: 050 - Ground Altitude=0 ClrdAlt=19000 Terrain=0 COM=118.6
16/04/2016 21:07:54: 520 - Ground Altitude=0 ClrdAlt=19000 Terrain=0 COM=118.6
16/04/2016 21:07:54: 640 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Turn right heading 100  '
16/04/2016 21:07:54: 720 - FS Screen :  R-B Delta 8042 Turn right heading 100
16/04/2016 21:07:59: 860 - ****** HotKey #12 detected!
16/04/2016 21:08:02: 220 - Ground Altitude=0 ClrdAlt=19000 Terrain=0 COM=118.6
16/04/2016 21:08:03: 280 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Turn right heading 100  '
16/04/2016 21:08:03: 320 - FS Screen :  £-£ Delta 8042 Turn right heading 100
16/04/2016 21:08:10: 840 - Ground Altitude=0 ClrdAlt=19000 Terrain=0 COM=118.6
16/04/2016 21:08:13: 160 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!
Probably due to this PF3 bug you never checked in with Departure and therefore Departure never cleared you above the initial clearance of 5000ft.
When you requested a higher altitude, Departure got really confused:
16/04/2016 21:14:40: 920 - Transcript: 'American 404 Radar contact Altimeter is 2992  '
16/04/2016 21:15:14: 660 - ****** HotKey #4 detected!
16/04/2016 21:15:35: 290 - ****** HotKey #4 detected!
16/04/2016 21:15:39: 740 - Transcript: 'American 404 Climb to 6 thousand  '
But now you reached the waypoint for handover to center, you did a check-in and luckily PF3 ignored the hotkey 1 (request cleared to final) and things might have been back to normal, but currently there is a bug under investigation that sometimes prevents proper descent instructions after requesting a FL change, which you did (HotKey #4).
16/04/2016 21:15:48: 520 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Contact SAN JUAN CENTER on 126.7  '
16/04/2016 21:16:21: 840 - ****** HotKey #0 detected!
16/04/2016 21:16:24: 300 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Roger Altimeter is 2991  '
16/04/2016 21:16:30: 700 - ****** HotKey #1 detected!
16/04/2016 21:16:35: 830 - ****** HotKey #4 detected!
16/04/2016 21:16:39: 160 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Climb to Flight Level 190  '
16/04/2016 21:16:57: 160 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!
16/04/2016 21:19:33: 380 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 Descend to 17 thousand at pilot's discretion Altimeter is 2991  '
16/04/2016 21:20:00: 410 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!
16/04/2016 21:23:41: 780 - Transcript: 'Delta 8042 at Juliet Uniform India Charlie Echo Descend to 3 thousand   Cleared to final for Romeo November Alpha Victor 10 Approach runway 10 at pilot's discretion Contact Tower on 118.7 when established.  '
So I think the main problem was not doing the proper check-in with Departure due to PF3's bug of letting Departure talk to you before check-in.
The followup error was trying to work around this problem by requesting a higher altitude while PF3 was already confused.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:37 pm
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dmarch wrote:
The main problem here is you didn't follow ATC instructions and took it upon yourself to continue climbing. I see you are also using voice recognition and so your VCP mode is set to zero.
He waited at 5000ft for some time, Departure did not issue further instructions, see my analysis above.
dmarch wrote:
May I suggest, until you get used to PF3 that you maybe try setting your VCP mode to 3 and don't bother about VR until you are happy that PF3 is working as it should and you can actually see what it does and how it does it.
I would usually recommend the same, but I haven't found a single problem caused by this in the log. rvm33 seems to have mastered the interaction between PF3 and MCE very well :)

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:50 pm
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Location: LIMZ
 
A note regarding the original fpl. There appears to be only one departure from TIST: the PALCO 6 Departure. When I ran the fpl through routefinder it picked this up as well. Also routefinder created a slightly different route. Routing via A638 I suspect to avoid some of the airspace restrictions. http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=18.337 ... 73&zoom=10
TIST-->PALCO-->STT-->GUYRO-->SLUGO-->TNCM.

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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Constantly problems with flightplans
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:27 pm
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ThomasAH wrote:
He waited at 5000ft for some time, Departure did not issue further instructions, see my analysis above.
But he didn't wait long enough! Step climbs had been reset and would have recommenced with the next handover, but by then it was too late!

My recommendation remains unchanged. Please get used to how PF3 handles basic situations before jumping in at the deep end and using VR.

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
...I just can't remember how it used to be!

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