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Navigraph Integration

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egkkman
Post subject: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:46 pm
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Hi Dave,

I hope you and yours are well. I spent quite some time as a beta tester for PFE / FDC, good to see you're back!!

I have searched the forum and can't see that this has been asked, but apologies if it has.

Do you have any plans to integrate Navigraph into PF3? I feel that the PF3 SID STAR facility is a bit cumbersome, but also it is not possible to configure it properly where an airport has multiple Stars & SIDS for one runway / waypoint. I currently use another ATC programme but it can be a bit flaky and currently it does not support P3D 3.0. I would like to return to the 'fold'. ;) It's just the SID STAR configuration that is holding me back. :(

I realise this is not an easy thing to add, but it would be a great addition, IMHO.

All the best

Dave


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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:42 pm
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Posts: 980
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
Location: LIMZ
 
egkkman wrote:
Hi Dave,

I hope you and yours are well. I spent quite some time as a beta tester for PFE / FDC, good to see you're back!!

I have searched the forum and can't see that this has been asked, but apologies if it has.

Do you have any plans to integrate Navigraph into PF3? I feel that the PF3 SID STAR facility is a bit cumbersome, but also it is not possible to configure it properly where an airport has multiple Stars & SIDS for one runway / waypoint. I currently use another ATC programme but it can be a bit flaky and currently it does not support P3D 3.0. I would like to return to the 'fold'. ;) It's just the SID STAR configuration that is holding me back. :(

I realise this is not an easy thing to add, but it would be a great addition, IMHO.

All the best

Dave
I'll let Dave answer that. But another option that has been aired is to have a drop down list if you like. One that the user populates. That could be a useful alternative if doable.

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egkkman
Post subject: Re: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:02 pm
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Hi vololiberista,

Thanks for replying.

A drop down would be useful I think, but not as user friendly, in my view anyway.

I was really thinking about MAP altitudes, FAF altitudes MSAs, MAP procedures etc. from Navigraph. If these were in PF3 there would be no need to manually input them, PF3 would have them and would 'know' what you (the pilot) should be doing. Also, if like me you use Navigraph for charts, FMC, PFPX etc., any changes, temporary or permanent would be updated each month and PF3 would be in line with these changes.

In reality most flights have the SID & STAR included in the flight plan, it is not issued by ATC as such. Long haul is a bit different, but for short haul they are part of the flight plan. The Navigraph data would provide the added benefit of ATC being able to read out the correct SID STAR as needed.

Regards

Dave


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jkeye
Post subject: Re: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:48 pm
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:53 am
 
Please could you NOT implement dependency on AIRAC data?
I've used Proatc x which does and the AIRAC data can vary significantly with what is in P3D-wrong ILS frequencies,runway names, closed runways, unavailable airports can create havoc at the end of a long flight.
I feel grateful that PF3 does not depend on AIRAC right now. Introducing dependence could create a whole host of issues needing addressed.
Jay


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voju24
Post subject: Re: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:38 pm
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jkeye wrote:
Please could you NOT implement dependency on AIRAC data?
I've used Proatc x which does and the AIRAC data can vary significantly with what is in P3D-wrong ILS frequencies,runway names, closed runways, unavailable airports can create havoc at the end of a long flight.
I feel grateful that PF3 does not depend on AIRAC right now. Introducing dependence could create a whole host of issues needing addressed.
Jay
I totally agree with this.

For me the focus should really be more on making it more convenient to manage the SID/STAR names maybe even make it possible to share such data, but without requiring AIRAC which implies a large increase in complexity and possible subtle unwanted discrepancies.

David


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pschlute
Post subject: Re: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:37 pm
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voju24 wrote:



AIRAC which implies a large increase in complexity and possible subtle unwanted discrepancies.

David
Not least for those of us who fly into Kai Tak regularly !!

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sbsim
Post subject: Re: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:52 pm
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:23 pm
 
The new version of my randomisation utility will enable to create complete SID/STAR naming systems (with probabilities of assignment) and save/share them as presets for specific airports, runways, etc. But as Randomizer sets everything ex ante, a runway-based preset will only work (stay valid) if the RWY assignment is not changed, or if the preset is made generic enough...
Roman


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helix1250
Post subject: Re: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:13 am
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On a personal note, I would welcome in the future the option to use AIRAC data. I like knowing ATC is on par with my FMC with data, especially on difficult approaches and departures.

Maybe at some point it could be a check box option, to use it or stick with manual insertion of data.

Just my tuppence worth :)

Rob


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RALF9636
Post subject: Re: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:05 am
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Before I switched to PF3 I used two different ATC-addons that both could handle AIRAC data (in theory at least...). So when I first looked at PF3 my first thougt was "What a pity this otherwise so promising software does not work with AIRAC data."

Fortunately that did not hold me back and now after two months and dozens of great flights with PF3 I don't miss it at all.

I plan my flight with a flightplanning software that uses AIRAC data. Then I look at the specifications of the relevant SIDs/STARs and decide wether to include the SID/STAR waypoints in the PF3-flightplan or not. I set up the PF3 options accordingly. If I do that properly, PF3 will simulate the real world procedures realistically, thanks to the great flexibility it offers.

Having said that there is no doubt it would be the optimum if PF3 could properly handle AIRAC data. But I consider it a massive task to implement this.
There are so many different characteristics of SIDs/STARs to be dealt with. Some are runway specific, others are not. Some have transitions at the start, some have transitions at the end. Some are only a few miles short, others are more than 100nm long. And while the AIRAC data are up to date, the scenery in the sim ist not. Runway numbers change, runways (and whole airports) are closed, new runways are built. So the AIRAC data won't mtach the scenery in the sim.
All that would have to be considered and may be the source of all kinds of problems. As far as my experience goes, the other ATC-addons are also struggling with it.

So it certainly would be a nice thing to have, but I'd rather see Dave March spend his resources on other nice little things to further enhance PF3 than on this massive task.

Regards

Ralf

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Navigraph Integration
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:53 am
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Posts: 980
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 pm
Location: LIMZ
 
RALF9636 wrote:
Before I switched to PF3 I used two different ATC-addons that both could handle AIRAC data (in theory at least...). So when I first looked at PF3 my first thougt was "What a pity this otherwise so promising software does not work with AIRAC data."

Fortunately that did not hold me back and now after two months and dozens of great flights with PF3 I don't miss it at all.

I plan my flight with a flightplanning software that uses AIRAC data. Then I look at the specifications of the relevant SIDs/STARs and decide wether to include the SID/STAR waypoints in the PF3-flightplan or not. I set up the PF3 options accordingly. If I do that properly, PF3 will simulate the real world procedures realistically, thanks to the great flexibility it offers.

Having said that there is no doubt it would be the optimum if PF3 could properly handle AIRAC data. But I consider it a massive task to implement this.
There are so many different characteristics of SIDs/STARs to be dealt with. Some are runway specific, others are not. Some have transitions at the start, some have transitions at the end. Some are only a few miles short, others are more than 100nm long. And while the AIRAC data are up to date, the scenery in the sim ist not. Runway numbers change, runways (and whole airports) are closed, new runways are built. So the AIRAC data won't mtach the scenery in the sim.
All that would have to be considered and may be the source of all kinds of problems. As far as my experience goes, the other ATC-addons are also struggling with it.

So I rather have Dave March spend his resources on other nice little things to further enhance PF3 than on this massive task.

Regards

Ralf
As Peter said above it would screw the approach into Kai Tak. A lot of us fly aircraft without FMCs and they require a different approach to navigation. From what I have seen also, the ATC programmes that "give" you a SID and STAR often give the wrong ones. In practice the fpl filed with ATC by the the airline will also include preferred SIDs if there is a choice that direct the a/c to the same outbound waypoint. If there are different SIDs to the same wypt from the same rwy there are reasons. For example time of day or night, noise abatement, traffic density and so-on. To give an example at Venezia LIPZ. The correct departure for a/c wishing to climb the Alps is ROKIB 6J not ROKIB 6S. ROKIB 6S is the one chosen exclusively by other ATC programmes. It is used only at night and only when Treviso airport is closed as the flight path encroaches on Treviso airspace. The exception is for flights wishing to go via RESIA. That's the sort of thing a flightplanning programme cannot determine and would require human intervention. This is why if any alteration to the present PF3 function is made I would prefer a drop down list box that I could personally populate and choose from.

I know a lot of people already have subscriptions for Navigraph data but a lot don't and it would mean having to have a navigraph subscription just to use PF3. An option that might be workable is for PF3 to have an optional bolt on module. The module specifically handles navigraph data and feeds PF3. So you would have to pay extra for the module and it would ask if you are already subscribed or not. If not then you would have to additionally subscribe. Perhaps it could then direct you to the correct page for that purpose.

Bear in mind that this exact topic has already been raised in this forum and has been discussed. What PF3 does now is not far from the truth in reality. It's just not "random".

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