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No STAR, no descent

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cvgeeratz
Post subject: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:57 pm
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Hi,

First of all thanks for this great product. I love the variation of voices and the overall level of realism.
However I'm still struggling with the approach part. Hope you can help.

Yesterday I did a short flight between SBRJ and SBSP.
All set up according to real world procedures, including SID (IH1A) and STAR (KOMG1A) and FAF at SBSP (4000), for a landing on 17R (using ASN winds set 220@7).
All was good up to cruise at FL300, however PF3 did not start to clear me for descent, despite having PF3 set to be at PAGOG (DP set) at 21.000,
So I had to manually request a lower FL to not overshoot PAGOG.

When at PAGOG PF3 directly cleared me for 4000, on a appproach to 17R on PILOT DISCRETION, although I expected to be cleared via KOMG1A STAR.

Thirdly; a couple of minutes later PF3 changed runway to 35L. In itself a great feature, however, in this case wrong since I have the winds locked via ASN.

When cleared to land for 35L I was still at 9000 feet and PF3 reported winds at 315@7, which were indeed the winds reported via ASN for 9000 feet. Although, as said winds at ground level for SBSP (which is actually 2400 feet up) were set at 220@7. So it seems to me PF3 took the actual winds at the current flight level to determine approach runway & wind reports, instead of taking the winds at ground level.

Stubborn as I am I continued on the apporach to 17R, and upon landing noticed that this was the actual runway AI was using as well.

Any advice would be great to overcome the 3 issues I experienced:
- No descend until at DP-waypoint
- No STAR being assigned, just pilot descretion
- Runway assigment seeming accoding to actual wind at current light level, in stead of airport ground level.

Debug log is attached.

Thanks a bunch!
Cyrille

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:03 pm
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cvgeeratz wrote:
- No descend until at DP-waypoint
You would have received descent instructions few seconds later:
Code: Select all
20-2-2016 23:20:12: 460 - Current Waypoint No: 5  Dest: 7  iLanding: 0 iClimb=2  Dist to next WP: 3.689305
20-2-2016 23:20:12: 460 - Ulat: -23.4701058855402 ULon: -44.9938349201361 UHdg: 277 UAlt: 29982 UIAS=255 OTG=False
20-2-2016 23:20:12: 520 - Current COM's (Routing=0)
20-2-2016 23:20:13: 640 - Transcript: 'BRASILIA CENTER Gol Transport 354 is with you, level at Flight Level 300 IFR  '
20-2-2016 23:20:23: 630 - Transcript: 'Gol Transport 354  '
20-2-2016 23:20:28: 950 - --> Select next WP at 1.871338 miles
20-2-2016 23:20:29: 000 - Step Descents for Waypoint: 6
20-2-2016 23:20:29: 000 - -----------------------------
20-2-2016 23:20:29: 000 -      23000'
20-2-2016 23:20:29: 000 -      21000'
20-2-2016 23:20:33: 390 - Transcript: 'BRASILIA CENTER Gol Transport 354 Requesting Flight Level 220  '
20-2-2016 23:20:39: 660 - Transcript: 'Roger Gol Transport 354 Descend to Flight Level 220  '
20-2-2016 23:20:45: 950 - Transcript: 'Out of Flight Level 300 for Flight Level 220 Gol Transport 354  '
20-2-2016 23:21:07: 570 - Current Waypoint No: 6  Dest: 7  iLanding: 0 iClimb=0  Dist to next WP: 33.22654
At 23:20:28 (or some seconds before that) you reached the next waypoint (an internal one) and ATC already calculated the upcoming step descents, but then you were quicker to ask for a lower altitude.
If you want earlier descents, you can create an aircraft profile in PF3 or manually change the altitudes before connecting.
cvgeeratz wrote:
- No STAR being assigned, just pilot descretion
The log shows KOMG1A being still active until the runway change, maybe ATC decided to grant you VIP treatment :)
(on the other hand, I have no idea ... Dave?)
cvgeeratz wrote:
- Runway assigment seeming accoding to actual wind at current light level, in stead of airport ground level.
Code: Select all
20-2-2016 23:28:58: 330 - Wind_Surf_Dir=266  Wind_Surf_Vel=8  rwyClouds = 6831 Cloud_Low_Base = 0
20-2-2016 23:29:01: 980 - Transcript: 'Gol Transport 354 Runway change at Papa Alpha Golf Oscar Golf Descend to Flight Level 40  Cleared to final for runway 35 Left at pilot's discretion Contact Tower on 127.15  when established.  '
20-2-2016 23:29:19: 590 - Transcript: 'Out of Flight Level 180 for Flight Level 40 at Papa Alpha Golf Oscar Golf until established on the ILS runway 35 Left   Tower on 127.15  when established. Gol Transport 354  '
20-2-2016 23:29:36: 100 - Wind_Surf_Dir=265  Wind_Surf_Vel=8  rwyClouds = 6831 Cloud_Low_Base = 0
...
20-2-2016 23:39:10: 630 - Wind_Surf_Dir=309  Wind_Surf_Vel=7  rwyClouds = 6831 Cloud_Low_Base = 6799
20-2-2016 23:39:10: 740 - Transcript: 'Gol Transport 354 Winds 310 at 7 Cleared to land runway 35 Left  '
20-2-2016 23:39:20: 150 - Transcript: 'Cleared to land runway 35 Left Gol Transport 354  '
20-2-2016 23:39:32: 040 - Wind_Surf_Dir=308  Wind_Surf_Vel=7  rwyClouds = 6831 Cloud_Low_Base = 6799
So it looks fine, but maybe PF3 sees a wrong value. Dave needs to verify this.
But in any case, you can always request a different runway from Tower using a hotkey (ctrl-shift-w by default).

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cvgeeratz
Post subject: Re: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:20 pm
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Hi Thomas,

Thanks or the help. Just flew the same route again and the results are much better!
Quote:
At 23:20:28 (or some seconds before that) you reached the next waypoint (an internal one) and ATC already calculated the upcoming step descents, but then you were quicker to ask for a lower altitude.
If you want earlier descents, you can create an aircraft profile in PF3 or manually change the altitudes before connecting.
Changed decent profile from 2000ft/min to 1800ft/min for the PMDG 738 and the clearance to decent was spot on, exactly at the TOD.
Quote:
The log shows KOMG1A being still active until the runway change, maybe ATC decided to grant you VIP treatment :)
(on the other hand, I have no idea ... Dave?)
Must be my lucky day, got cleared via pilot descretion again :D
Quote:
So it looks fine, but maybe PF3 sees a wrong value. Dave needs to verify this.
This time no runway change, stayed on the apporach to 17R all the time, as should be given the surface weather.

One new thing that struck me though, after vacating the runway PF3 always request to hold short, and expects you to actually stand still before assigning the arrival gate.
IRL there is no hard stop after vacating most of the times. Is this behaviour correct?

Thanks again,
Cyrille

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:34 pm
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cvgeeratz wrote:
One new thing that struck me though, after vacating the runway PF3 always request to hold short, and expects you to actually stand still before assigning the arrival gate.
IRL there is no hard stop after vacating most of the times. Is this behaviour correct?
I think this is normal behaviour, I had this only twice during the past months.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:44 pm
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cvgeeratz wrote:
Quote:
The log shows KOMG1A being still active until the runway change, maybe ATC decided to grant you VIP treatment :)
(on the other hand, I have no idea ... Dave?)
Must be my lucky day, got cleared via pilot descretion again :D
Dave, can you say what happens here?

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Dave March
Post subject: Re: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:43 pm
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Next on my list

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
...I just can't remember how it used to be!

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RALF9636
Post subject: Re: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:20 am
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ThomasAH wrote:
cvgeeratz wrote:
One new thing that struck me though, after vacating the runway PF3 always request to hold short, and expects you to actually stand still before assigning the arrival gate.
IRL there is no hard stop after vacating most of the times. Is this behaviour correct?
I think this is normal behaviour, I had this only twice during the past months.
Thomas, are you saying you are proceeding after vacating the runway without being told to "hold your position" and receive taxi clearance to the gate while taxiing? I have to come to a stop everytime.
Might this depend on having the taxi guidance enabled because the TGS needs you to stand still to initiate?

Thanks.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:01 am
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RALF9636 wrote:
Thomas, are you saying you are proceeding after vacating the runway without being told to "hold your position" and receive taxi clearance to the gate while taxiing? I have to come to a stop everytime.
Correct.
I usually receive the taxi guidance within 7-9 seconds after announcing "Clear of the active runway", so you maybe you have to be slow enough to not cross another taxiway within this time. When I get "hold your position" (which already happens after 4 seconds), I get the taxi guidance after about 30 seconds. I have also seen "stand by", which I assume means "you'll get guidance soon, so don't drive too fast for now".
RALF9636 wrote:
Might this depend on having the taxi guidance enabled because the TGS needs you to stand still to initiate?
I have TGS enabled, too, so that is no difference.
I guess that it is either a random chance, or it depends on your speed compared to the distance of the next taxiway intersection.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:17 am
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"Hold your Position" almost always occurs once clear of the runway. I sometimes don't get it if I am taxiing very slowly at that point. It was always the same in PFE. So perhaps it's way of identifying your precise position.

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Dave March
Post subject: Re: No STAR, no descent
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:09 am
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vololiberista wrote:
"Hold your Position" almost always occurs once clear of the runway. I sometimes don't get it if I am taxiing very slowly at that point. It was always the same in PFE. So perhaps it's way of identifying your precise position.
Absolutely correct. On larger airports in particular it can take a little while to calculate the best taxi route, in which time, if you're taxiing too fast you could have already past a few of the taxi waypoints that PF3 has decided to use. That in turn would mean you have to hit the 'skip taxi waypoints' hotkey a few times. So it's always best to turn off the runways and then slow down to a crawl.

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
...I just can't remember how it used to be!

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