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PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)

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alpha3
Post subject: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:47 am
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Gentleman, this software is just full of bugs (I'll get to that in a minute). But, per my last post, it should be perfectly acceptable to file a flight plan between KJFK and KIAD as "RBV Hyper6". That's the way it's done in real life, look it up on Flight Aware. Direct to RBV and thence via the Hyper6 STAR. RBV also happens to be the STAR transition. However, because PFPX never includes the waypoints of a STAR in an exported flight plan, the generated flight plan contains only one waypoint which is also designated as the STAR entry. Apparently PF3 doesn't like this. Well ... OK. So, what I did in PFPX is to include the next STAR waypoint (HIKES) as a normal waypoint and let the Hyper6 STAR commence from DELRO. So now the exported PFPX flight plan has two waypoints with HIKES designated as the STAR entry. The attached file PF3.png file shows what the flight plan looks like in PF3.
That's a pretty straight-forward flight plan that PF3 should handle right? Nope, it choked on this too. Let me get to the heart of the problem with this program. The XXX waypoint(s) PF3 generates are fundamentally flawed. There is no way one can fly a STAR the way one chooses without this program getting lost unless that STAR route, by some act of randomness, comes in close proximity to the hypothetical XXX waypoint (of which the user has no idea where that is). The enclosed flight plan and logs will show that once 3/4 of the way through the STAR, again (just like in the first post), I'm told by PF3 ATC that I'm off course (15 miles in this case). What course? I'm flying precisely to the STAR but apparently not close enough to XXX (wherever that is). That call came as I was descending to 10,000ft which also happens to be the assigned altitude for XXX. So, once I reach 10,000ft, I stay there, and stay there, and stay there as KIAD drifts below without another word from ATC. Same as last time. Look at the enclosed logs and flight plan.
Additionally, the VCP is another problem. When I started at KJFK, I had VCP OFF. I got the clearance manually, I got the push and start manually. Then, right after the push completes, the VCP calls ground for taxi clearance. The VCP is supposed to be OFF?? Then when I got to the active runway I turn the VCP on and dial in the tower frequency. The VCP then, unprovoked, calls the tower for taxi clearance (??? I'm laughing by now). I then intervene, hit 6 and ask for takeoff clearance and receive it. Now for some reason in flight, the VCP keeps reporting altitude to CENTER. In real life, you check in with CENTER once handed off and report altitude leaving and target, and only respond to CENTER requests. This program will do it two or three times unprovoked when on the same CENTER frequency. Initial check-in with CENTER is "New York Center delta 4 is with you passing 15,000ft for FL270. CENTER acknowledges. OK. But then unprovoked, the VCP calls again as "delta 4 is with you passing 18,000ft for FL270. CENTER simply acknowledges. Then the VCP will do it again before reaching FL270. Is this bugged or are you serious? This is unrealistic and sounds corny. And to add more insult to injury, when taxing on ground, the ground controller's clearance to cross runways works on some flight sessions and not on others. Either I get consistent clearance to cross runways as I approach or I get complete silence. Totally haphazard.
I've wasted enough time beta testing this software. You have a promising ATC program here that doesn't appear to be ready for market. The buyers of this don't want to have to mechanically alter real flight operations just to get the program to work. We've got FSX core ATC for that. The ability to work with SIDs and STARs is paramount yet this program simply doesn't. I don't want to integrate this ATC program into an otherwise outstanding simulation and feel like I'm walking on eggshells the entire flight hoping this program doesn't go bananas and ruin the entire experience.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:12 am
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alpha3 wrote:
Gentleman, this software is just full of bugs (I'll get to that in a minute). But, per my last post, it should be perfectly acceptable to file a flight plan between KJFK and KIAD as "RBV Hyper6". That's the way it's done in real life, look it up on Flight Aware. Direct to RBV and thence via the Hyper6 STAR. RBV also happens to be the STAR transition. However, because PFPX never includes the waypoints of a STAR in an exported flight plan, the generated flight plan contains only one waypoint which is also designated as the STAR entry. Apparently PF3 doesn't like this. Well ... OK. So, what I did in PFPX is to include the next STAR waypoint (HIKES) as a normal waypoint and let the Hyper6 STAR commence from DELRO. So now the exported PFPX flight plan has two waypoints with HIKES designated as the STAR entry. The attached file PF3.png file shows what the flight plan looks like in PF3.
That's a pretty straight-forward flight plan that PF3 should handle right? Nope, it choked on this too. Let me get to the heart of the problem with this program. The XXX waypoint(s) PF3 generates are fundamentally flawed. There is no way one can fly a STAR the way one chooses without this program getting lost unless that STAR route, by some act of randomness, comes in close proximity to the hypothetical XXX waypoint (of which the user has no idea where that is). The enclosed flight plan and logs will show that once 3/4 of the way through the STAR, again (just like in the first post), I'm told by PF3 ATC that I'm off course (15 miles in this case). What course? I'm flying precisely to the STAR but apparently not close enough to XXX (wherever that is). That call came as I was descending to 10,000ft which also happens to be the assigned altitude for XXX. So, once I reach 10,000ft, I stay there, and stay there, and stay there as KIAD drifts below without another word from ATC. Same as last time. Look at the enclosed logs and flight plan.
Additionally, the VCP is another problem. When I started at KJFK, I had VCP OFF. I got the clearance manually, I got the push and start manually. Then, right after the push completes, the VCP calls ground for taxi clearance. The VCP is supposed to be OFF?? Then when I got to the active runway I turn the VCP on and dial in the tower frequency. The VCP then, unprovoked, calls the tower for taxi clearance (??? I'm laughing by now). I then intervene, hit 6 and ask for takeoff clearance and receive it. Now for some reason in flight, the VCP keeps reporting altitude to CENTER. In real life, you check in with CENTER once handed off and report altitude leaving and target, and only respond to CENTER requests. This program will do it two or three times unprovoked when on the same CENTER frequency. Initial check-in with CENTER is "New York Center delta 4 is with you passing 15,000ft for FL270. CENTER acknowledges. OK. But then unprovoked, the VCP calls again as "delta 4 is with you passing 18,000ft for FL270. CENTER simply acknowledges. Then the VCP will do it again before reaching FL270. Is this bugged or are you serious? This is unrealistic and sounds corny. And to add more insult to injury, when taxing on ground, the ground controller's clearance to cross runways works on some flight sessions and not on others. Either I get consistent clearance to cross runways as I approach or I get complete silence. Totally haphazard.
I've wasted enough time beta testing this software. You have a promising ATC program here that doesn't appear to be ready for market. The buyers of this don't want to have to mechanically alter real flight operations just to get the program to work. We've got FSX core ATC for that. The ability to work with SIDs and STARs is paramount yet this program simply doesn't. I don't want to integrate this ATC program into an otherwise outstanding simulation and feel like I'm walking on eggshells the entire flight hoping this program doesn't go bananas and ruin the entire experience.
I don't recall you ever being on the beta testing team!
The bugs are mostly all yours and not PF3's. Your flightplan is not correct it should be
[ attachment ]
Image3.jpg (16.47 KiB) Viewed 4113 times
I strongly suggest you change your flight planning software. The XXXs you refer to are control centre boundaries the last being 46nm from your destination and that is correct. There has been a small issue with QNE which has been resolved in the latest update. Have you checked that? Probably not judging by your tone. Constructive comments are always welcome but sweeping statements based on incorrect setups are another thing. "READ THE MANUAL" and adjust PF3 to suite your needs. It is a very flexible programme which is more than can be said for some others. I'm sure Dave will have a look at your logs when he has time and if there is an issue he'll fix it which is more than can be said for some others. But he might be tempted to not look at your logs if you maintain your current attitude.

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Dave March
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:58 am
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In addition to vololiberista's comments I would also like to add the following.

There really is no need to take this sort of tone. That's precisely what we would expect on other flight sim forums and the main reason why we decided to run our own independent support facility here. Every post so far has been answered in a timely fashion and most importantly politely and with courtesy. All I ask of anyone posting here is to show the same courtesy not only to the PF3 team but to anyone wanting to avail themselves of this forum.

That said I really do understand your frustrations when something doesn't go the way you think it should or you unfortunately discover a new problem. We've all been there at some stage. But to say this product is not ready for market yet is somewhat unfair and uncalled for. Do you really think ANY software developer actually releases their products knowing that certain functionality is flawed? Just check out some of the other posts on the forum and you will see there are others with different issues and those who have no issues at all and have kindly posted about how much they are enjoying the new program.

You may list as many bugs, problems, inaccuracies or failures of PF3 as you seem fit and your posts will never be deleted or edited and we will endeavour to answer all your queries the best we can as as quickly as we can. If that isn't good enough for you simply deactivate the program, send me an email stating that you have done so and include your activation number and I will authorise a full refund.

I will hopefully be able to check your logs thoroughly later today and report back. In the meantime don't even bother putting STAR waypoints into your flight, simply activate STARS and when you hit your last waypoint fly whatever approach you require... it really is that simple.

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Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
...I just can't remember how it used to be!

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:09 pm
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vololiberista wrote:
I strongly suggest you change your flight planning software.
While I don't agree with the tone of the OPs post, this is not very helpful either. Same as PF3, PFPX offers great flexibility. You can produce flight plans with one that are not good for the other, but you can produce different flight plans, too.
As I now understand it, the RBV HYPER6 route is something that real flights use:
http://flightaware.com/analysis/route.r ... ation=KIAD
So it would be good if PF3 supports such plans.
dmarch wrote:
In the meantime don't even bother putting STAR waypoints into your flight, simply activate STARS and when you hit your last waypoint fly whatever approach you require... it really is that simple.
Since the last waypoint is XXX, the problem is reaching it.
You have added an algorithm to silently switch to the next waypoint if someone misses one:
Is this active for XXX waypoints, too? (I assume yes)
Is this active if the next waypoint after the current one is the destination airport, too? (I assume no)

And what do you think about my suggestion to remove all XXX waypoints between the last real waypoint and the destination airport, with showing a warning? Then there might be an early handoff to Approach, but that's much better than the current situation.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:14 pm
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ThomasAH wrote:
vololiberista wrote:
I strongly suggest you change your flight planning software.
While I don't agree with the tone of the OPs post, this is not very helpful either. Same as PF3, PFPX offers great flexibility. You can produce flight plans with one that are not good for the other, but you can produce different flight plans, too.
As I now understand it, the RBV HYPER6 route is something that real flights use:
http://flightaware.com/analysis/route.r ... ation=KIAD
So it would be good if PF3 supports such plans.
dmarch wrote:
In the meantime don't even bother putting STAR waypoints into your flight, simply activate STARS and when you hit your last waypoint fly whatever approach you require... it really is that simple.
Since the last waypoint is XXX, the problem is reaching it.
You have added an algorithm to silently switch to the next waypoint if someone misses one:
Is this active for XXX waypoints, too? (I assume yes)
Is this active if the next waypoint after the current one is the destination airport, too? (I assume no)

And what do you think about my suggestion to remove all XXX waypoints between the last real waypoint and the destination airport, with showing a warning? Then there might be an early handoff to Approach, but that's much better than the current situation.

Manual adjustments might help to override the altitude constraint created by PF3 at the last XXX. Try this.
[ attachment ]
mxe.jpg (8.11 KiB) Viewed 4071 times
The trick would be to get below the centre base. The control centre boundaries exist so shouldn't be messed with. Some more adjustment might be needed in the SID/STAR page whether sid/stars are active or not. Try it either way.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:26 pm
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vololiberista wrote:
Manual adjustments might help to override the altitude constraint created by PF3 at the last XXX. Try this. The trick would be to get below the centre base. The control centre boundaries exist so shouldn't be messed with. Some more adjustment might be needed in the SID/STAR page whether sid/stars are active or not. Try it either way.
But then then you would still have to reach XXX (as the end of the STAR), right? Same problem, unless PF3 drops XXX waypoints below center altitude.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:41 pm
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ThomasAH wrote:
vololiberista wrote:
Manual adjustments might help to override the altitude constraint created by PF3 at the last XXX. Try this. The trick would be to get below the centre base. The control centre boundaries exist so shouldn't be messed with. Some more adjustment might be needed in the SID/STAR page whether sid/stars are active or not. Try it either way.
But then then you would still have to reach XXX (as the end of the STAR), right? Same problem, unless PF3 drops XXX waypoints below center altitude.
I don't think the control centre boundary is the issue here because that can be overridden by manual adjustments. It is more likely the existence of waypoints after the start of the STAR that causes the problem. It's a bit like LOWI circle to land rwy08.
If you use VNAV then you need loads of fixes all the way down. Plus the Absam and Innsbruck NDBs. If you put those into PF3 you end up with a vectored approach all the way which is incorrect.
Some of these N.American fpls suffer this problem. KTPA--> KIAH has a SID of 278nm from LEV for example.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:57 pm
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vololiberista wrote:
ThomasAH wrote:
vololiberista wrote:
Manual adjustments might help to override the altitude constraint created by PF3 at the last XXX. Try this. The trick would be to get below the centre base. The control centre boundaries exist so shouldn't be messed with. Some more adjustment might be needed in the SID/STAR page whether sid/stars are active or not. Try it either way.
But then then you would still have to reach XXX (as the end of the STAR), right? Same problem, unless PF3 drops XXX waypoints below center altitude.
I don't think the control centre boundary is the issue here because that can be overridden by manual adjustments. It is more likely the existence of waypoints after the start of the STAR that causes the problem. It's a bit like LOWI circle to land rwy08.
If you use VNAV then you need loads of fixes all the way down. Plus the Absam and Innsbruck NDBs. If you put those into PF3 you end up with a vectored approach all the way which is incorrect.
Some of these N.American fpls suffer this problem. KTPA--> KIAH has a SID of 278nm from LEV for example.
From a different angle LIPZ-->LOWI on climb out from LIPZ one passes into Padova control at about FL80 whilst still flying the SID but because LIPZ is already under Padova Control there's no need for a boundary marker. So diving under the Centre base might do the trick. Being the opposite of the LIPZ situation as it were.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:31 pm
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By the way, I just created a flight KJFK to KIAD with PFPX using HYPER4 (I don't have HYPER6, maybe due to an old AIRAC?), when exporting the route, it includes the HYPER4 waypoints, I can set HYPER as the start or the STAR and there are five(!) regular waypoints after XXX, so navigation should not be a problem.

I exported the FSX flight plan in PFPX's route editor, maybe this makes a difference?

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster (Part 2)
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:54 pm
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ThomasAH wrote:
By the way, I just created a flight KJFK to KIAD with PFPX using HYPER4 (I don't have HYPER6, maybe due to an old AIRAC?), when exporting the route, it includes the HYPER4 waypoints, I can set HYPER as the start or the STAR and there are five(!) regular waypoints after XXX, so navigation should not be a problem.

I exported the FSX flight plan in PFPX's route editor, maybe this makes a difference?
So PF3 is not full of bugs then!! I didn't think so-Good job TH

We need to get Dave to set up a subscription service for "PF3 Flight Planning Services S.p.a." 25 Euros a shot I think!

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