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PF3 First Flight - A Disaster

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:40 am
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alpha3 wrote:
dmarch wrote:
Sorry you had such an issue but as Thomas said please ZIP and email all the files in your PF3\lOGS folder, otherwise I have no way of knowing what happened.
One reasons that I bought this program is for support. So thanks for responding. I have included the zipped "Logs" folder with the PFPX generated FP that I used in PF3. Note that I departed from KJFK Terminal 8 on the last flight and there was no TGS (nor any ground communication when crossing runways) as I indicated in my original email (I had, oddly enough, received TGS support when departing Terminal 4 on an earlier flight). So the TGS is another issue ... Anyone could attempt this same flight with the flight plan I included to replicate the issue.
Did the ground crew push you back facing the right direction? If so slap their wrists as that can sometimes throw TGS In which case <ctrl><shift> W will skip to the next taxiway.

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alpha3
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:29 am
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vololiberista wrote:
alpha3 wrote:
dmarch wrote:
Sorry you had such an issue but as Thomas said please ZIP and email all the files in your PF3\lOGS folder, otherwise I have no way of knowing what happened.
One reasons that I bought this program is for support. So thanks for responding. I have included the zipped "Logs" folder with the PFPX generated FP that I used in PF3. Note that I departed from KJFK Terminal 8 on the last flight and there was no TGS (nor any ground communication when crossing runways) as I indicated in my original email (I had, oddly enough, received TGS support when departing Terminal 4 on an earlier flight). So the TGS is another issue ... Anyone could attempt this same flight with the flight plan I included to replicate the issue.
Did the ground crew push you back facing the right direction? If so slap their wrists as that can sometimes throw TGS In which case <ctrl><shift> W will skip to the next taxiway.
You mean the PMDG pushback? The reason I ask is the manual is so terse in describing what this feature does. As far as I can tell through testing, selecting both "push and start" does nothing more than provide a push and start clearance on initial contact with ground. There isn't a hidden physical pushback in there that I'm missing is there?


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pschlute
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:11 am
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Push and start will just give you clearance, there is no pushback truck.

Listen to the taxi instructions from ground. Especially the first taxiway. If your not following the route they ask you to take the TGS will not kick in.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:12 am
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alpha3 wrote:
You mean the PMDG pushback? The reason I ask is the manual is so terse in describing what this feature does. As far as I can tell through testing, selecting both "push and start" does nothing more than provide a push and start clearance on initial contact with ground. There isn't a hidden physical pushback in there that I'm missing is there?
You're correct in assuming that the "push and start" option doesn't actually provide you with a tug! The people who drive the tug belong to a different trade union so it's just the clearance.

My point was though was if the tug pushes your nose in the wrong direction. That can upset the TGS and in thoses cases where you don't seem to be getting what you expect <ctrl><shift> W will skip to the next taxiway and all should be well.

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alpha3
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:55 am
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vololiberista wrote:
alpha3 wrote:
You mean the PMDG pushback? The reason I ask is the manual is so terse in describing what this feature does. As far as I can tell through testing, selecting both "push and start" does nothing more than provide a push and start clearance on initial contact with ground. There isn't a hidden physical pushback in there that I'm missing is there?
You're correct in assuming that the "push and start" option doesn't actually provide you with a tug! The people who drive the tug belong to a different trade union so it's just the clearance.

My point was though was if the tug pushes your nose in the wrong direction. That can upset the TGS and in thoses cases where you don't seem to be getting what you expect <ctrl><shift> W will skip to the next taxiway and all should be well.
Agree with you. Found the TGS issue was due to wrong way on taxiway. But, the real problem is what I stated in the initial post. Waiting on answer to those issues ...


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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:43 am
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alpha3 wrote:
I wondered what the XXXs are. The manual explains these are internally generated by PF3.
They indicate points where you cross control center boundaries.
alpha3 wrote:
In the SIDs/STARS page, I designated RBV as the beginning of the STAR.
...
Once over RBV I'm told to "navigate at pilot's discretion (believing this means to the STAR)". Then, at least 100nm before my NGX FMC indicated TOD, I'm told to descend to descend to 16000ft. Ok, a little odd, but I do it. Then silence. Then as I navigate at 16000ft per FMC LNAV on the STAR route, the controller says that I'm 23 miles off the airway.
No logs for this one, so no idea what happened here.
There are only "resume own navigation" and "cleared to final for (something) at pilot's discretion", not sure which one you got here.
But as other posts here have indicated: It seems a little odd that your STAR starts more than 150nm from the destination airport.
alpha3 wrote:
The next time I try by not designating any STAR entry point in the hopes that ATC might guide me. Nope. Same thing. The only difference is that when I reach RBV there is no clearance for the "Sierra Tango" approach (generic for the STAR). Instead I hear nothing until being instructed to descend to 16000ft for the next incarnation of likely fuel exhaustion.
All ATC calls the log from "resume own navigation" to "Check position":
11:03:33 PM: 'Delta 4 resume own navigation  '
11:03:41 PM: 'Roger resume own navigation Delta 4  '
11:04:01 PM: 'Delta 4 Climb to Flight Level 270  '
11:04:07 PM: 'Out of 6 thousand 5 hundred for Flight Level 270 Delta 4  '
11:04:37 PM: 'Delta 4 Contact NEW YORK CENTER on 134.65   '
11:04:43 PM: '134.65  Delta 4  '
11:04:52 PM: 'NEW YORK CENTER Delta 4 is with you, out of 9 thousand for Flight Level 270 IFR  '
11:05:01 PM: 'Delta 4 Radar contact Altimeter is 3034  '
11:05:34 PM: 'Delta 4 Reduce speed to 250  '
11:05:38 PM: 'Reduce speed to 250 Delta 4  '
11:06:03 PM: 'Delta 4 Climb to Flight Level 270  '
11:06:10 PM: 'Out of 8 thousand 5 hundred for Flight Level 270 Delta 4  '
11:09:31 PM: 'Delta 4 Contact WASHINGTON CENTER on 134.55   '
11:09:37 PM: '134.55  Delta 4 Good day  '
11:09:45 PM: 'WASHINGTON CENTER Delta 4 Out of 16 thousand 5 hundred for Flight Level 270 IFR  '
11:09:56 PM: 'Delta 4 Altimeter is 3034  '
At this point you were still at 15665ft, i.e. below the transition altitude. Something strange for us europeans :)
11:10:32 PM: 'Delta 4 Reduce speed to 310  '
At this point you reached RBV, so PF3 prepared you give you descent instructions to the next waypoint XXX (16000ft) by slowing you down, but you did not reach neither your cruise altitude (32000ft) nor cleared flight level (FL270) yet, so it waited.
11:10:37 PM: '310 Delta 4  '
At 11:15:21 you reached FL27, so PF3 could clear you for the next altitude at XXX:
11:15:26 PM: 'Delta 4 Descend and maintain 16 thousand Altimeter is 3037  '
11:15:34 PM: 'Out of Flight Level 270 for 16 thousand on 3037 Delta 4  '
Now the problem is, PF3 expects you to navigate to your destination via XXX, the last waypoint before the destination airport.
But you should not need to do this, because you don't know where XXX really is (spoiler: on the line between RBV and the destination airport).
Dave, I suggest that PF3 should not create XXX waypoints between the last user waypoint and the destination, even if they should have been there. Optionally warn the user about the last waypoint being too far away from the destination.
11:34:28 PM: 'Delta 4 Check position. We show you to be about 33 miles off the airway  '
At this point you have already passed XXX, but did not hit it. Asking for vectors or requesting direct to your destination might have helped, but I'm not even sure if they would be allowed at this point of the flight.

The best thing to do would be to make a better flight plan.
A workaround for this flight plan that Dave could implement is highlighted above.

I hope this analysis clarifies the reason for the disaster :)

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Dan77
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:39 am
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ThomasAH wrote:
Dave, I suggest that PF3 should not create XXX waypoints between the last user waypoint and the destination, even if they should have been there. Optionally warn the user about the last waypoint being too far away from the destination.
I think the former (eliminating the XXX waypoint) may not be a good idea because this in effect changes the control sector of the destination airport. A sector handoff should occur if the sector boundary is crossed. Perhaps a warning could be issued if the last waypoint is too far away, as you say. A better flight plan would help.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:01 pm
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And for a better flight plan try this . It uses routefinder and therefore is always running the latest airac cycle. And you can export to a variety of flight plan formats

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:03 pm
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.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: PF3 First Flight - A Disaster
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:24 pm
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Actually having a look at the charts for KIAH the last wypt LEV doesn't actually look wrong as it's the start of a massively long STAR
Here is "proper" flight plan for your route in PF3
[ attachment ]
kt.jpg (6.14 KiB) Viewed 3089 times
And here is the STAR which starts at LEV circled in red.
You would have to add all the wypts etc to your fpl from LEV to GILCO
[ attachment ]
kt2jpg.jpg (73.45 KiB) Viewed 3089 times

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