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Issue with Descent/Approach

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regis902
Post subject: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:16 pm
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Hello, I've tried two flight with PF3 so far. The first was a short hop, CYHZ-CYQM in the RealAir Legacy, the second was CYHM-MDPC in the PMDG NGX. In both cases, I was able to get my clearances, taxi, take-off etc with issue. But in both cases, I never received any instructions to descend. I had the profile descent speed set to 1800fpm in both cases and didn't alter any of the default altitude in my flightplan. I did not use a STAR for either flight.

In the case of the NGX flight, I started descending myself manually by asking for lower altitudes and PF3 complied. Eventually I was told by ATC (which was Cleveland Center oddly since I was in the Caribbean) that I was 243 miles off course, so I'm guessing with all of this PF3 somehow thought I was somewhere other than where I was.

In the case of the YHZ-YQM flight I did not have the same "off course" issue.

This was all in P3D 3.1

Thanks


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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:35 pm
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Please email all the files from your pf3/logs folder

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regis902
Post subject: Re: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:53 pm
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Hello, most of the issues I was having (related to not passing waypoints closely enough) seem to have been fixed by the latest maintenance releases, thanks for that.

I did have another issue last night though on a shorter flight:

CYHZ YQY CYQY was the flightplan. I'm wondering if my issue was related to the only intermediate waypoint (Sydney VOR, YQY) being at the destination airport. This would be a similar situation to my CYHZ-CYQM described in the original post.

I was cruising at FL250, got my initial descent clearance just fine, but then never got further descent clearances until I asked for them ( I had to ask as I was getting to the point I never would have made the airport if I waited longer). I was finally handed over to approach when I was about 5nm out from the airport and they told me to expect the ILS 19 approach. By that time I was so close to the airport that I had taken matters into my own hands and was landing visually.

I've attached the logs, is there some special treatment required when the only intermediate waypoint is at or near the destination airport? When I look at the flightplan, YQY was showing FL250 as the altitude by default, I'm thinking at least I should edit the altitude of the waypoint lower, but how low? Should it be the airfield altitude, FAF altitude? Would it be best to just omit the YQY waypoint in this case and have no intermediate waypoints?

Thanks for any help, looking forward to better understanding how PF3 deals with some of these items so I can plan my flights accordingly.

Dave

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Logs.zip
(240.72 KiB) Downloaded 184 times


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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:27 pm
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regis902 wrote:
CYHZ YQY CYQY was the flightplan. I'm wondering if my issue was related to the only intermediate waypoint (Sydney VOR, YQY) being at the destination airport.
Yes, I'm sure that this will cause problems. I assume PF3 warned you about this when loading the flight plan?

Edit: I just saw in the log that you disabled warnings.

And I saw this:
Alt for WP:   0 -  CYHZ -   477
Alt for WP:   1 -   YQY - 25000
Alt for WP:   2 -  CYQY -   203
So maybe you could have flown over the airport at FL250 and then see what happens, e.g. circle to land until everyone is airsick? :)

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regis902
Post subject: Re: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:40 pm
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Thanks, yeah i don't think the pax would have appreciated a circling descent given the wx in the area last night! :D

So would pf3 generally work better with yqy omitted, or with the altitude reduced?


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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:51 pm
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regis902 wrote:
Thanks, yeah i don't think the pax would have appreciated a circling descent given the wx in the area last night! :D

So would pf3 generally work better with yqy omitted, or with the altitude reduced?
You need at least one waypoint between your departure and your destination airport, so simply removing it does not help.
Reducing the altitude would only enable a circle-to-land starting at a lower altitude.
The real solution is to use a waypoint that is farther away, e.g. IGTAS.

Edit: On the other hand you could keep YQY (but in addition to IGTAS!) and just reduce the altitude, PF3 will vector you from YQY to the FAF, which is probably east of the airport and you will have to do a sharp turn (about 350 left, but PF3 might make more smaller ones) to reach runway 25.
When I load a flight plan with CYHZ->YHZ->IGTAS->YQY->CYQY (your flight planner might accept this as "CYHZ4 IGTAS J575 YQY"), it gives me 2000ft for YQY and my cruise alt for the other waypoints.
IGTAS should then be marked as the end of your SID. Alternatively remove YHZ and do not assign an end of SID.

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ThomasAH
Post subject: Re: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:19 pm
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The approach might then look like this:
[ attachment ]
CYQY.png (34.86 KiB) Viewed 3546 times
But you do not need to enter LERES and GAGBU, PF3 will vector you. If there is a problem with that, you might want to add LERES.

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vololiberista
Post subject: Re: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:45 pm
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Location: LIMZ
 
ThomasAH wrote:
regis902 wrote:
Thanks, yeah i don't think the pax would have appreciated a circling descent given the wx in the area last night! :D

So would pf3 generally work better with yqy omitted, or with the altitude reduced?
You need at least one waypoint between your departure and your destination airport, so simply removing it does not help.
Reducing the altitude would only enable a circle-to-land starting at a lower altitude.
The real solution is to use a waypoint that is farther away, e.g. IGTAS.

Edit: On the other hand you could keep YQY (but in addition to IGTAS!) and just reduce the altitude, PF3 will vector you from YQY to the FAF, which is probably east of the airport and you will have to do a sharp turn (about 350 left, but PF3 might make more smaller ones) to reach runway 25.
When I load a flight plan with CYHZ->YHZ->IGTAS->YQY->CYQY (your flight planner might accept this as "CYHZ4 IGTAS J575 YQY"), it gives me 2000ft for YQY and my cruise alt for the other waypoints.
IGTAS should then be marked as the end of your SID. Alternatively remove YHZ and do not assign an end of SID.
YQY is the VOR on the field so you would want to avoid that if you can. They are expensive to repair.

This fpl looks better and spaces out your SID and STAR
Bear in mind that for your destination you need different fixes for the different runways. This is for rwy07
[ attachment ]
mxx.jpg (11.03 KiB) Viewed 3545 times
Flight planning services will debit your bank account with EURO 25 the next available working day :lol:

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regis902
Post subject: Re: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:09 pm
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Thanks guys! Next time I'll try CYHZ - IGTAS - CYQY and see how I make out, that would be the same direct course in any event.


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Dave March
Post subject: Re: Issue with Descent/Approach
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:27 pm
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Posts: 6093
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Location: Sawtry, Cambridgeshire. UK
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regis902 wrote:
Hello, most of the issues I was having (related to not passing waypoints closely enough) seem to have been fixed by the latest maintenance releases, thanks for that.

I did have another issue last night though on a shorter flight:

CYHZ YQY CYQY was the flightplan. I'm wondering if my issue was related to the only intermediate waypoint (Sydney VOR, YQY) being at the destination airport. This would be a similar situation to my CYHZ-CYQM described in the original post.

I was cruising at FL250, got my initial descent clearance just fine, but then never got further descent clearances until I asked for them ( I had to ask as I was getting to the point I never would have made the airport if I waited longer). I was finally handed over to approach when I was about 5nm out from the airport and they told me to expect the ILS 19 approach. By that time I was so close to the airport that I had taken matters into my own hands and was landing visually.

I've attached the logs, is there some special treatment required when the only intermediate waypoint is at or near the destination airport? When I look at the flightplan, YQY was showing FL250 as the altitude by default, I'm thinking at least I should edit the altitude of the waypoint lower, but how low? Should it be the airfield altitude, FAF altitude? Would it be best to just omit the YQY waypoint in this case and have no intermediate waypoints?

Thanks for any help, looking forward to better understanding how PF3 deals with some of these items so I can plan my flights accordingly.

Dave
As the guys have already mentioned, having a flight plan with the one and only waypoint and 1 mile from your destination YOU are going to have problems. PF3 on the other hand doesn't mind and will start vectoring you once you reach your last waypoint... should be fun!

_________________

Cheers

Dave March

Email: dmarch@oncourse-software.co.uk

I don't know if my memory is getting worse as I get older...
...I just can't remember how it used to be!

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