OnCourse Software

Kyle: First, I don't have an "Olympia Six Arrivial" chart... I purchased all the Jeppesen charts about a year ago...The entire USA...I don't have the update service as I don't fly the real world anymore..At 72 I am grounded...

Although I have been beta testing PFE since day one, A STAR is not something I tried since I usually fly only flights of less than one hour..

Under your "2. From PFE options, choose vectoring for arrival"...I assume you mean uncheck "STAR's active"..Which I how I normally fly PFE..

I have my ATC Appoach altitude set for 5000ft... So when I reach 5000ft I will get "contact Approach on..."

The Approach Plate for 34C (34L) has you at 5000ft at LORIE (17.0 dme) descending to 2400 at TIFYS (6.0 dme).. If you are at FOURT at 10,000 and 11.0 dme you are a "bit" high..and well above the GS..

The PFE limitations are obvious....

Ray

Hello, Ray and Kyle. Thanks to both for joining in on this thread which I started.

Ray, It appears that you included the waypoints shown on your two sample flight plans in your PFE flight plan. It appears you used the SID/STAR setup page in the PFE interface, otherwise, I presume, you wouldn't have gotten the ALPHA ONE clearance, right?

Now it appears that the two of you may have real-world IFR experience, and it seems that you, Ray, do for certain. I only have VFR experience, but I have picked up a little here and there on the subject of IFR while pursuing this hobby.

Now if PFE were following real-life procedure here, wouldn't you have been cleared to fly the ALPHA ONE STAR before reaching BTG? I thought the purpose of a STAR was to free up ATC from having to give clearances to incoming aircraft, knowing that they would be flying a published arrival. That is why I didn't include the actual waypoints of the STAR in my flight plan. I assumed PFE would ignore everything I did while on the STAR route until I got to my final waypoint of the STAR. That obviously didn't happen.

Also, when you say you set ATC approach altitude to 5000 ft, what feature are you referring to and where in the PFE interface is it? Are you referring to the altitude adjustment for the final waypoint or the new feature, where you set miniimum FAF altitudes, or something else?

As far as getting vectors to final I did manage to pull that off, with "STARS Active" checked. I can't remember whether I was handed off to approach or whether I just tuned into the approach frequency out of exasperation. I did do that on one of my two test flights. In any case when I pushed key 7 (request vectors), approach answered and gave me both descent clearances and vectors to final for Rwy 16 L. It's a good thing 34 wasn't active because I was way too high.

Say, Ray, I am curious, do you choose this route frequently because you live in the Pacifc Northwest? I live down in Salem and used to fly a little Cessna 140 out of there. Of course I never ventured on the route we have been talking about, although I did fly into Boeing Field once, which was quite an adventure for me in my little puddle jumper!

Thanks for trying out those routes for me. Much appreciated!

Best regards,

Tom

Ray Lunning wrote:

Kyle: First, I don't have an "Olympia Six Arrivial" chart... I purchased all the Jeppesen charts about a year ago...The entire USA...I don't have the update service as I don't fly the real world anymore..At 72 I am grounded...

Hi Ray

Yes, indeed Olympia Six is the latest revision, but the procedures are more or less identical with the same waypoints and all.
See this
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204 ... LYMPIA.PDF

Ray Lunning wrote:

Under your "2. From PFE options, choose vectoring for arrival"...I assume you mean uncheck "STAR's active"..Which I how I normally fly PFE..

Yes, exactly.

Ray Lunning wrote:

The Approach Plate for 34C (34L) has you at 5000ft at LORIE (17.0 dme) descending to 2400 at TIFYS (6.0 dme).. If you are at FOURT at 10,000 and 11.0 dme you are a "bit" high..and well above the GS..

Yes, that's correct. I was just looking at the charted altitudes for each leg on the STAR plate. Not that familiar with the FAA format though as my IR is JAR. Since there are no obivous value on that chart I'm referring to, it's likely that ATC would clear you lower along the STAR route toward final, in this case down to 5000ft.

What the original topic starter's problem is, don't know yet. My logic says PFE should clear the STAR passing the last flightplan waypoint, in this case BTG.

Tom, have you tried disabling the "off-route nagging" ?

Tom and Kyle: Here is the defination of a STAR out of the manual...

STANDARD TERMINAL ARRIVAL ROUTE (STAR)..(USA) ___ A preplanned instrument flight rule (IFR) air traffic control arrivial procedure published for pilot use in graphic and/or textual form. STARs provide transition from the enroute structure to an outer fix or an instrument instrument approach fix/arrival waypoint in the terminal area...

PFE as good as it is does not use the STAR as it is defined and as used as part of the Flight Plan.

The STAR would have a starting way point and a final waypoint.. At the final waypoint the pilot would expect "final Approach vectors"
Almost all STARS that I have looked at say "expect vectors"

A Flight Plan from Tulsa KTUL to Los Angeles KLAX might look something like this... Learjet N9AL cleared to Los Angeles via V140 (to PHN Amarillo), V12 (to INW Winslow), V291 (to PGS Peach Springs) REDEYE TWO ARIVIAL..(STAR), KLAX

I have used Low-Enroute Airways as I do not have the Jet Routes..
Routes V140, V12 and V291 obviously have VORs enroute to define the airway and waypoints..But the Flight Plan is quite simple.. V140-V12-V291-REDEYE TWO Arrivial.. You are cleared for the STAR at Tulsa when you accept the Flight Plan...

Peach Springs is about 260 nm from LAX and you would be at FL250 or above...From Peach Springs you would be expected to fly the published route...You would remain in contact with Center who will coordinate your speed and descent for ATC separation of IFR traffic..
As you approach the LAX traffic area you will be handed to Approach Control who will vector you to the final approach course...
Not sure here (memory) but Center may not "clear" you for the REDEYE TWO ARRIVIAL at Peach Springs because it is already part of your Flight Plan...

If you are going to create a PFE Flight Plan for this route you will enter KTUL and KLAX as your Departure and Destination Points..(Obvious)..Second..you need to enter enough waypoints (VORs) to define V140, V12 and V291 to Peach Springs (PGS)... You will assign altitudes as necessary..As part of the PFE Flight Plan you will need to enter enough intersections (waypoints) as needed to define the REDEYE TWO ARRIVAL..You will need to assign altitudes as necessary to create a descent to your approach altitude...
I AM NOT SURE HOW PFE HANDLES THIS WHILE CLEARED FOR THE STAR..??
If your final REDEYE TWO ARRIVIAL waypoint is too close to KLAX you may not get good vectors to final from PFE ATC....??

Some answers for TOM:
You said: "thought the purpose of a STAR was to free up ATC" ..not so...see the defination...Its just a pre-planned route..that becomes part of your Flight Plan...You remain in contact thruout the STAR procedure... ATC may define your altitudes as there most likely are other aircraft flying that route.. A STAR is kinda like short hand for defining a route...You can't deviate from that route or assigned altitude without clearance from ATC..(at pilots descretion doesn't really work here)
I set the Approach Calls at about 5000ft above the destination airport..I do this in PF2000 just prior to compiling my flightplan for PFE..
5000ft AGL is the approximate "transition altitude" between Approach and Center controllers...
The problem with the KPDX to KSEA flight is that BTG is too close to use as a waypoint for a STAR.. You will be way below the minimum altitude as you pass BTG...
Right now I live in Surprise AZ... When I flew my Cessna T210 I was based near Ontario Calif... I have flown in the Portland and Seattle area...
I choose KPDX to KSEA and back because its a short..I don't need to sit in a chair for five hours on a cross country flight...warping as I go..
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PFE works very well... Good Flight Plans make it work better...Some day PFE may get closer to "real world" flying...But, as a pilot I can say it does a very good job...It is "interactive" and PFE will take some liberties.. My thanks to Dave for keeping me flying...

Ray Lunning

Ray,

Thanks so much for your efforts in clarifying some things for me. I obviously was laboring under some misconceptions, and I have you to thank for clearing them up. In fact I found your last response so useful that I printed it out and put it in a binder containing some of my favorite flight plans for future reference.

While I wish that PFE could handle STARS more realistically, I, like you, am greatful for what it does do, which is to help create an extremely immersive and realistic flight environment. I too owe a world of thanks to Dave for not only bringing PF2000 back to life but for transforming it considerably beyond its original design.

Also, my thanks for answering the personal question about your real-life whereabouts. Another reason I thought you might live in my area is that I seem to recall your name associated with an addon scenery for my own local airport of Salem.

Tom

Tom: Yes! I did do a Salem and a couple of others up in that area...
Got a little burned out doing scenery...

This is a most informative thread and talks about a major issue regarding PFE and approach procedures.

I believe the issue stems from the different way as STARs are defined in Europe as in Europe the STAR would most likely get you down to the runway while in the US STARs indeed have a final waypoint - sometimes quite far out - where the actual IAP usually starts. In most cases you would be receiving vectors from Approach to get you on the localiser course.

A question to Mr. Dave March: can we expect in any of the future updates a little customization so that one could define the ending waypoint of the STAR - which is usually the same as one of the IAFs for the approach procedure? And we would get vectors to the loc course as in real life? If one does not defines this than it would be assumed that the STAR ends on the runway (as it is usual in Europe?)

Thanks,

Alex

Hi Alex,

It's on my list

That is indeed most excellent news!

Well don't get too excited... my list contains items to 'look at' and not necessarily to implement and to ensure I don't forget any suggestions put forward.