OnCourse Software

Hi,

I've never really been satisfied with the way PFE handles STARS. Perhaps someone could enlighten me if I am doing something wrong.

Let's use a sample flight from KPDX (Portland OR) to KSEA (Sea-Tac). Incorporating the Olympia Five Arrival would encompass the following wappoints: KPDX, BTG (VOR), OLM (VOR), ARVAD, FOURT, KSEA. When I set up my initial flight plan for conversion to PF2000 I use the following waypoints: KPDX, BTG, SEA (VOR) and KSEA. SEA is put in there to help PF2000 compile the plan; it will be eliminated when the plan is finished compiling (as are all VOR's within 15 nm, I believe).

After compiling, the flight plan looks like this: KPDX, BTG, KSEA. The starting point of the STAR is actually BTG. I did it this way so that BTG would be the last waypoint before KSEA, and therefore presumably I would be cleared for Papa Tango, the generic STAR name within PFE. Also I checked the "STAR's Active" box in PFE. Having done this, I expected to be receiving a clearance for the STAR and to finals shortly after passing BTG, which would have allowed me to fly the actual STAR route without being harassed by ATC.

Such was not the case; I received several advisories that I was off course, and of course, I was, according to the PFE flight plan. However, I was on course as far as the STAR route was concerned. It wasn't until I had almost reached Olympia VOR (OLM) that I actually received clearance to fly the STAR route and to intercept the ILS for runway 16L.

Ideas, anyone. Thanks in advance.

Tom Murphy

Hi Tom,

Please email me the debug_monitor log and the original flight plan

I fly this route quite often...My flight plan is KPDX-BTG-OLM-CARRO (V27) to KSEA..... After cossing CARRO heading 050 I get approach and perfect vectors to 34L...
I would not use ARVAD and FOURT..They will get you to a straight in to KSEA but I think PFE wants to begin Approach Vectors before you get to ARVAD...FOURT is just 11nm from KSEA..
If you flight plan is KPDX-BTG-KSEA (V495) then you are off course when you proceed to OLM...
Flying out of KPDX to KSEA you would not normally use a STAR...(short flight).. To use a STAR you would normally "Arrive" at BTG well above 10,000ft.

Ray Lunning

Ray, I appreciate your input. If memory serves me correctly, you actually have commercial flight experience.

The reason I chose the STAR after departing Portland was that it gave me an opportunity to quickly check to see if PFE could handle the procedure without having to fly very far. I expected to have PFE allow me to fly the STAR once I had passed BTG. I realize that the route I chose would put me off course with regard to my original flight plan, but that's what I thought the purpose of checking the little box on the SID/STAR setup page was for, to automate the process of having ATC clear me to fly Sierra Tango and be cleared to finals for runway xx.

I guess my real question was whether or not I was setting things up correctly, and I was hoping that someone who had successfully flown STAR's within PFE and done it successfully would pass on the method to me.

Maybe I'll try some other routes so that I approach the initial waypoint of a STAR at the appropriate altitude and see if that works before I send Dave my log files. If you see anything generically wrong with the way I set things up in my original query, I would much appreciate your comments.

Thanks again and best wishes,

Tom

I don't normally use SIDs/STARs.. But I am going to try one...

I have a complete set of Jeppesen Low Enroute Charts and Approach Plates for the entire USA.. I make all my Flight Plans using these charts.. I also try to route the flight for easy vectors for an ILS intercept...

PFE works very well if you can get the aircraft good position where you have a minimum of turns...

I have "tweeked" my Dept, Dest and waypoint buffers by about 50%..This has allowed me to use waypoints closer to the airport/ILS...

I don't recommend this unless Dave recommends it...but it works for me..

I'll try a STAR at KSEA and get back.

Ray

Ray,

Thanks for looking into this. I look forward to having you share your experience with us.

Tom

Tom,

Next time a STAR is not initiated correctly for you please send me the debug log.

I assume you are waiting for ATC to clear you to fly the STAR?

Hi, Dave,

Yes, next time I fly a STAR and it is not initiated correctly I will send you the debug log. And secondly, your assumption is correct.

The best to you,

Tom

Tom: I have two Flight Plans for KPDX to KSEA..

FP1... KPDX-BTG (14000ft)-OLM (10000ft)-CARRO (5000ft)-KSEA
FP2... KPDX-BTG (14000ft)-OLM (10000ft)-KSEA

STAR name is ALPHA ONE

Using FP1, ATC cleared me for Alpha One passing CARRO..
Using FP2, ATC cleared me for Alpha One passing OLM..

ATC does not hand me over to Approach, but keeps me in contact with Center...

Using the Seattle Olympia Five Arrival..(my Alpha One).. You depart OLM heading 022 to FOURT..Then R to 070 for vectors to final..

As this is "at pilots descretion", Navigation to the ILS is OK...

PFE seems to be working OK using the STAR, however "real world" procedure is missing something...

After departing OLM at 10,000ft on Center freq. I need to descend "at pilots descretion" at 5000ft I should be handed to Approach for additional vectors and clearance to the ILS...PFE seem to keep me on Center...

The STAR route should have a starting WP (not just the last WP) and a final WP at which point you would get final vectors to the ILS...

Ray Lunning

Ray Lunning wrote:

PFE seems to be working OK using the STAR, however "real world" procedure is missing something...

After departing OLM at 10,000ft on Center freq. I need to descend "at pilots descretion" at 5000ft I should be handed to Approach for additional vectors and clearance to the ILS...PFE seem to keep me on Center...

The STAR route should have a starting WP (not just the last WP) and a final WP at which point you would get final vectors to the ILS...

Ray Lunning

Ray

I took a look at the Olympia Six arrival.. apparently the same but a new revision. Seems fine to me. Upon reaching FOURT in reality you'd get vectored for the final, for a north or south landing. That's why you have the NOTE: RADAR REQUIRED in the chart - you can't complete this transition to final without radar vectoring.

However, PFE does not work like this. It's one or the other - you get vectored all the way from the last waypoint on your flightplan, or the STAR option, navigate to the final on your own. You can't have part STAR and part vectors unfortunately.

Same with the center / approach frequency. The handoff only happens passing the universal "center altitude" which is set in Proflight 2000 before compiling your flight plan. You may want to check where yours is set. To my understanding PFE does NOT take into account the lateral or vertical limits of approach facilities.

So, these are both PFE limitations.

One workaround comes to mind, if you want to fly the procedure as close to reality as possible. Apparently from that southerly direction there is only one STAR available which is Olympia Six.

1. Include STAR waypoints BTG-OLM-FOURT in your flightplan, and make sure you have the intermediate altitudes in it too. You should be at 10000ft reaching FOURT (or 12000ft if landing south but since you can't know this it doesn't really matter).

2. From PFE options, choose vectoring for arrival. This way you don't get a verbal clearance for the Olympia STAR, but PFE assumes you fly it. You'll then start getting vectors passing FOURT.

Not sure how well the vectors will work out though, as FOURT is pretty close to KSEA. Give it a try.

-kyle