OnCourse Software

I realize that ATC can deny my request and assign a different cruising altitude for a number of reasons. However, relative to normal easterly or westerly routing on numerous occasions I have been assigned altitudes by PFE ATC in my initial clearance which I believe are in error, or would be extremely rare at best.

For example: with varied altitude assignments, I created, saved, and flew the following IFR flight plan multiple times:

Origin: KLWB, Greenbrier Valley in Lewisburg, WV.
Destination: KHPN, Westchester Co. some 20 to 30 miles NE of La Guardia and Kennedy, NY
Waypoints: KLWB - Denny - MOL - MRB - LRP - BWZ - SAX - KHPN
All courses are easterly between 33 degrees and 102 degrees
(which according to regulations would normaly be odd assigned altitudes).
Requested Altitude: 7,000 feet

1. First attempt: PFE ATC Assigned me 12,000 feet in my ATC clearance.
Both FSC and ProFlight 2000 listed 7,000 feet, including my ProFlight 2000 printout without any editing.

2. Second attempt: PFE ATC assigned me 7,000 feet in my ATC clearance.
This time, even though it was already the same altitude in the readout, in the "Adjust Waypoint Altitudes for Selected ADV Flight File" option I edited all altitudes to be 7,000 feet. Note that this was my request and a normal easterly altitude assignment. No problem.

3. Third attempt: PFE assigned me 10,000 feet.

4. Fourth attempt: PFE assigned me 9,000 feet.
Note that this would be a normal easterly assigned altitude as might be expected.

5. Fifth attempt: Pfe assigned me 8,000 feet.

6. Sixth attempt: PFE assigned me 12,000 feet.

7. Seventh attempt: PFE assigned me 7,000 feet (My requested altitude was assigned).
This time, I had shut PFE down, restarted it, and selected this flight. This procedure has not been tried by me enough to prove anything yet, but might this be the solution?

Now the kicker: (for example useing my first or sixth attempt where my requested flight plan altitude was 7,000 feet, and assigned altitude was 12,000 feet):

With "CP Mode 2" selected, during my flight, every time I am passed off from one ATC location to another, the reply by my PFE copilot will be "climbing from 7,000 feet (or whatever altitude I am presently at) to 12,000 feet" which is my assigned altitude. However, if I follow this instruction, after I am above my requested altitude of 7,000 feet I will very soon receive a communication from PFE ATC correcting me to descend and maintain 7,000 feet. The next pass off, once again my PfE-copilot will reply that I am climbing to 12,000 feet. If I do that, I will again be corrected by ATC. This cycle can repeat throughout the flight and if I just fly my requested altitude I may not ever receive a command to descend upon reaching my destination.

A similar scenario has occured on a number of flights at different requested altitudes or high-altitude flight levels for varied flight plans.

I have clicked "Check for Updates" and the reply is that I am up to date.

No biggie, but am I missing something here and if so what am I doing wrong, or is this a glitch in the program?

Respectfully:
RTH

Always quote version numbers please, you may think you are up to date but you can never be 100% sure.

Thanks for the reply Andy:

"Version 2.11.1 - Updates checked 21/11/09 06:28"

I have checked for updates several times over the last 24 hours. If it is not updating, I have no idiea why.

However, I believe this scenario has been present with all previous versions and I purchased PFE as soon as it was released many months ago. I do use the original PF2000 installation.

Thanks again:
RTH

Andydigital wrote:

Always quote version numbers please, you may think you are up to date but you can never be 100% sure.

RTH,

Please send me a debug_monitor.log file from the PFE\Logs folder next time this issue occurs with a brief description as to what happened, which you believe to be incorrect. Could you also include the original flight plan

I have not had any problems with altitudes..

I first create a flight plan using the FS2004 FlightPlanner.. It will request a Cruise altitude...ie: 9000ft..

I then "convert" the flightplan in PFE...
I then open PF2000 and Compile the flight plan.. I enter the cruise altitude on the Main Page...I also enter 9000ft in the "Flight Level Altitude" box under settings..

Then I "compile the flight plan" During the compile you will see "Change Altitude Assignments for Waypoints" ...You should scan thru this to see that your cruise is the "higest altitude" ...may be same as TOC..
Adjust your waypoints and TOD as needed for descent..

Some of this can be done in PFE but I choose to do it in PF2000..

If the "cruise altitudes" are different in the various places I noted you may get a bad PFE assignment...

Ray Lunning

Good morning Dave:

The following along with the attachments you requested are included in an email reply I just sent to you. I have included my steps here as well in the event that this thread should turn out to be of use or help to anyone else.

Note: This is a duplicate of the same flight which was included in my initial post to this thread: KLWB - Denny - MOL - MRB - LRP - BWZ - SAX - KHPN in Milton Shupe's Beechcraft D18 at 7,000 Feet IFR.

1. Clearance instructed me to climb and maintain 10,000 feet. Shouldn't this have been an odd numbered assignment (i.e. 7,000, 9,000, 11,000 etc.?

2. On my climb out, when I reached 7,700 feet, ATC corrected me and instructed me to descend and maintain 7,000 feet to which I complied. (My flightplan altitude)

3. At 82 DME from MOL, ATC instructed me to contact Washington Center on 134.15.

4. My PFE Co-Pilot replied and stated that we were climbing from 7,000 to 10,000 feet which I began to comply with.

5. At about 7,500 feet, ATC again corrected me to descend and maintain 7,000 feet.

6. At 36 DME from MRB, ATC instructed me to contact Approach on 134.45.

7. Co-Pilot again replied that we were climbing from 7,000 to 10,000 feet.

8. At aprox. 7,500' ATC corrected me to descend and maintain 7,000 feet.

9. AT 46 DME from LRP: Contact NY Center on 133.47

10. CP replies climbing 7,000 to 10,000 feet

11. ATC immediately instructs to contact approach on 124.1

12. CP replies climbing 7,000 to 10,000 feet

13. ATC corrects me to descend and maintain 7,000 feet.

14. At 40 DME from BWZ, instructed to contact NY Ctr. On 132.1

15. CP replies: out of 7,000 for 10,000 Feet

16. Immediately instructed to contact approach on 127.6

17. ATC corrects me to descend and maintain 7,000 feet.

18. Virtually on top of BWZ, instructed to contact approach on 120.8

19. CP replies: Out of 7,000 for 10,000 feet. (Note: there is no longer a correction from ATC).

20. About 20 miles from my destination, ATC instructs me to descend and maintain 5,000 feet.

Hereafter, the flight is concluded normally with no problems or issues.

Note: In past flights, if I simply maintained my flightplan altitude and ignored my copilot's response to climb to the initial even numbered altitude or flight level, when I reach my destination I never receive instruction to descend for arrival. If I climb to my copilots responsive altitude (the initial clearance altitude), In spite of ATC's corrections, I do receive destination ATC to descend along with the appropriate headings.

This is no biggie to me, and if I keep closing PFE and starting over again, I usually can finally get a clearance that matches my flightplan, but it is a little bit of a hassle. Usually with a clearance that matches my requested altitude, it will be a step up clearance (i.e. Climb to 6,000, expect 7,000 in ten). Not always, but it is common.

Hope something here makes sense to you. If not, just ignore me. Like I said it is no biggie, but I don't understand why so often I get even altitude assignments for easterly routing, and odd routing for westerly routes. Surely, this is not a common assignment and would be relatively rare.

Respectfully:
Roger.

Thanks for the reply Ray:

My procedure is pretty much the same as yours with the exception that I usually create my initial flight plan with Flight Commander or FSNav.

I also quite often edit my altitudes in PF2000 as you mentioned only so my printout will show the correct altitudes for my flight. However I am migrating to the correction provisions in PFE that Dave was kind enough to provide. It saves an awful lot of work for long flights with many waypoints and I see no difference in the results.

The only issues about which I am inquiring are relative to even cruise altitude assignments for easterly headings (i.e. 8,000', 10,000' Fl280, FL320 etc.), and odd cruise altitude assignments for westerly headings (i.e. 9,000' 11,000', FL250, FL350 etc.).

Granted, on rare occasions due to unusual conditions ATC might do this, but normally Odd altitudes would be assigned for easterly routes, and even for westerly routes. It is quite often that my assignments are the opposite of this regulation.

Thanks again:
RTH

Hi Roger,

I believe I have found an issue with the initial clearance altitude.

Please try this.... create a flight plan where the cruise altitude is higher than the altitude you have set for 'Center'.... or simply change your 'Center' altitude to a level lower than your cruise altitude. I believe you will then find things work just fine.

I will of course correct this issue but in the meantime I'd be interested to hear back from you if you try the above workaround.

As for hemispherical altitude rules I will have to check... it's been a while since I perused that code

Hello Dave:

Looks like you nailed it.

For test purposes I lowered my "Center Altitude" to 6,000 feet and tried 20 varied flightplans. Each clearance was a step up clearance to my requested flightplan altitude (i.e. "Climb to and maintain 5,000, expect 7,000 in ten."

As always, thanks loads for your kind and prompt help.
RTH

Great, thanks.

Fixed in readiness for the next release